LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.11.10 (01) [E]

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From: kkennetz at arches.uga.edu <kkennetz at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.11.08 (03) [E]

From: George M Gibault <gmg at direct.ca>
>> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.11.06 (01) [E]
>>- so ironically, Canadians sound more
>> like US
>> newscasters than most Americans do.

From: Candon McLean <candon3 at yahoo.com>
>That's because many US newscasters _are_ Canadian.  And those
>Candadian newscasters _have_ influenced American English, e.g. the
>pronunciation of harassment.  Peter Jennings and his pseudo-BBC
>'hair-iss-ment' is one of my pet peeves (Don't say it in front of me
>if you're an American; I will correct you). ;-)
>
>Candon McLean

While there may be several well-known Canadians that are US newscasters,
I very much doubt that they are having a significant influence on
American English as spoken by Americans; just because a certain variety
is televised to the masses (which cant be much different from a
perceived spoken standard of American English or it wouldn't be used
anyway), doesn't necessarily mean it is having an impact on the speech
of the public at large, as you have suggested. Peter Jennings does, from
time to time, use features associated with Canadian English (e.g.
Canadian Raising)in his newscasts but very few Americans (with the
exception of maybe the northern border states) have similar speech
patterns. Nor are they acquiring it -- I hardly think that his
pronunciation of 'harassment' is spreading like wildfire throughout the
USA. Even if common patterns/features did exist, they would be not be
solely due to watching Canadian-anchored news programs. Very few people,
with the exception of those in certain professional fields have a
heartfelt desire to sound like a 'newscaster'. Imagine speaking with
'newscaster' vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation (not to mention
their intonation and facial expressions) to friends, family, and
strangers. Such speech would be extremely stilted if not outright
bizarre. Rather, I would think that American pop culture and with its
seductively superficial appeal should be held responsible for younger
Canadians sounding the way they do. This influence is also playing a
substantial role in the leveling of spoken regional varieties here in
the U.S.

I would be hesitant to use 'newscaster" or "television" varieties as an
accurate measure for *any* spoken language and/or variety. In the U.S.,
many often cite so-called Network English as an example of "standard"
American English, but I see this as nothing more than a well-established
myth. Such varieties maybe considered "standard" for their particular
news program but can hardly be seen as an example of "standard" spoken
English. And besides, varieties used by newscasters (at least the ones I
hear) often do exhibit regional features (as with Mr. Jennings' speech).

Keith Kennetz

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.11.09 (04) [E]

Dear all,

Ed, thank you for your contributions.

1. "The "Canadian" accent is descended from Mid Atlantic speech current at
the
time of the American Revolution..."

At last! As I suspected. Unbelievably enough, I have been unable to find any
online resources relating to this, but then I haven't tried too hard.

2. "Regarding the Orangeman argument, in Ontario, until the
last thirty years, this would be pretty much as linguistically interesting
as noting that they were all Methodists or Rotarians, since you didn't
really have to be born in Ulster to be a member of the Orange Lodge."

I take your point. However, I don't think you should dismiss Irish
Protestant influence so readily. No, you didn't have to be born in Ireland
to be a member of an Orange Lodge, but Orange Lodge attendance dropped off
dramatically with the decline in unfettered Irish immigration in the 20th
Century, to the point now, where ythe survival Orange culture in Ontario is
severely endangered. It would be fair to surmise that the Irish-born and
their children were most involved with Orangeism, and that this demographic
pool dissipated over time. As Orangeism was the ascendant culture in Ontario
for all of the 19th Century and the first half of the 20th, it is entirely
relevant to suppose that areas with strong Orange influence in Ireland
(e.g., Ulster) would have an equally strong influence, through immigration
and geographical concentration upon arrival in Canada, on Ontario English.
Orangeism isn't confined to a single sect (but it is largely confined to one
or two dialect areas in Ireland), Ed, and you really don't do your argument
any favours by fatuously manipulating my words to make it sound as if I'm
saying religion determines accent. When I speak of Orangeism, I am referring
to a regional culture and the handful of kindred accents that go with it.

3. "Petrol? Surely you jest. Even in Quebec, it's "le gaz". Kraft dinner
(sic) has nothing to do with TV dinner. Kraft Dinner is a cheese and
noodle concoction that can be purchased in any grocery store in North
America. And TV dinner takes me back to my childhood, since everywhere in
North America this has been almost totally replaced with "frozen dinner" or
such."

Yes, very clever, Ed. If you had read my comments more closely, you would
have noticed that I wrote "pseudo-examples", i.e., urban legends of
difference between Canadian and US English. The whole point of writing
"pseudo-example" and asking if it was true was to acknowledge that it was
probably a misconception. I'm surprised that you treat my inquisitiveness
with apparent contempt. Nonetheless, I appreciate your corrections.

4. "What are you talking about? Until very recently (when they changed the
name to Canada Customs and Revenue Agency), it was Revenue Canada from
coast to coast. This sort of terminology goes way back in Canada and
people are very accustomed to it. It probably started with the railways,
when the only difference between Canadian National and Canadien National
was in the spelling."

It wasn't me talking, Ed. Here you attributed a quote from George to me.

5. "Don't you think that "monstrosity" is a bit dramatic? English speaking
peoples are quite typical creole speakers in their propensity to easily
borrow and/or mutate words from other languages and cultures. Commercial
enterprises are incessantly assaulting the language in this way, as are
"teenagers" (I suppose this was considered a "monstrosity" by many when it
was coined, as well)."

Yes, I do think "monstrosity" is too dramatic, and I told George as much in
my reply to him. In fact, if you read my reply, which you mistifyingly
reproduce after the above in your answer, I said that I thought it was an
"elegant solution" that Ireland should borrow to realise true bilingualism
in Ireland (even if this might prove difficult because of the extensive and
intrinsic differences between Germanic and Celtic).

6 . "We'd be proud if it were true. It's still way, way easier for an
anglophone to get by in a completely francophone setting, than the reverse,
where derision and scorn are often the reward for speaking French."

Judged provisionally from what I've read, I'd cautiously agree. I suppose
the situation mirrors that of Irish in Ireland. If I'm speaking Irish with
someone, it's considered the height of bad manners to continue in Irish if a
non-Irish speaker arrives, yet I've never in all my life seen an English
speaker give a toss whether they upset an Irish speaker or not. This is
especially galling in Derry, where Irish is only spoken by about 5-10% of
the population, and I don't have much chance to have a good conversation in
Irish without some English speaker butting in about how they feel left out.
I suppose the simple answer is to stop whinging and go and learn the other
language. I've never censored any conversation because I don't speak the
language, and can't ever imagine doing it. It's an appalling thing to do.

7. "Once again, this is not the case. How else would you explain the accent
of
Senator Edward Kennedy? It's hardly Irish, to say nothing of Italian or
Portuguese, but clearly descended from the dominant accent of the original
European settlers which was Anglian, that is, with its unique vowel sounds
and non-rhotic characteristics. The accent of the Canadian Maritimes comes
from the same group mentioned above, from the New Jersey and Pennsylvania
region of the time. The inhabitants of western New England and upstate New
York did not and do not sound like this at all, which is pretty readily
apparent when one turns on local TV stations along the border of Canada and
these areas or if one goes into the remote mountain or rural areas where
the original speech is best preserved."

Having never really heard Ted Kennedy speak (I'm a newspaper person), I
can't comment on Ted Kennedy's accent. I would like to discover more about
the Mid Atlantic accent of the US Revolution, however. Anyone offering up
any links?

Finally, Ed, please do not base future arguments on what you believe me to
have written, as you mixed much of my last post up with George's. Please
make sure you base arguments on what I have actually written. It makes it
easier to respond to your points, which I enjoyed immensely.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostoir.

PS: Erek, Hiberno-English has or had largely retained Gaelic grammar,
lexicon and phonology in consonants (in Derry people say [h] for the theta
sound, e.g. [o'n@:hingk] 'anything', because Gaelic lacks theta), but
fossilised 17th-18th Century English vowel sounds e.g., [te:] for tea, and
some word meanings, e.g., "boy" to mean "swaggerer, armed adventurer"
(transferred to mean "IRA/UDA/UVF volunteer" in the 20th Century).

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.11.09 (04) [E]

Dear all,

To solve the argument of what means what in Canadian English:

http://www.cornerstoneword.com/misc/cdneng/cdneng.htm

Fairly comprehensive, I think.

Go raibh maith agaibh

Criostoir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Lowlanders,

Now that Gibraltar has been in the news again lately I am reminded to ask
you if you have more information about the specific Gibraltarian language
variety known as Yanito, also if any of you can come up with a small Yanito
corpus (language sample).  This type of information seems to be hard to come
by online, and I have not been able to find anything in the library either.
I know that there are at least two dictionaries, one in English and one in
Spanish, but I have a hard time getting my hands on them.

I find it interesting that English language sources tend to describe Yanito
as an English dialect with influences from local languages, while a few
Spanish sources I have sighted describe it as based on Spanish.  Some just
refer to it as a type of "Spanglish."  While I do not doubt that Spanish (=
Castilian) components are present, I also know that at the time of the
British take-over most Spaniards (=Castilians) left Gibraltar, and, besides
Britons, mostly Catalans and Italians moved in, later South Asians, and
there has been a North African community there for a long time.  Thus, I
would expect there to be influences from Catan, Ligurian Italian and perhaps
Arabic and/or Berber (Tamazight) in this linguistic blend, perhaps also
Ladino (Judeo-Spanish), given that there has been an important
Sephardo-Jewish community in Gibraltar.

Two notes:

(1) Apparently there have been complaints that Britain on the one hand talks
of self-determination but on the other hand neglects or even supresses
Yanito.  However, I wonder about this, given that oftentimes native speakers
or their descendants end up buying into what's "good" and what's "bad"
language and suppress the language of their own heritage.

(2) There seem to be myths floating around about the name "Yanito," which
also serves to refer to Gibraltarians.  (I suppose the feminine form would
be "Yanita.")  I have read here and there that it is based on a "Moorish"
(i.e., Moroccan) name given to British or Anglicized Gibraltarians, derived
from the name "John" (thus "Yanito" = "Johnny").  I find this somewhat hard
to swallow, even if we disregard the Spanish diminutive suffix _-ito_ ~
_-ita_, because, as far as I know, Arabic, including Moroccan dialects (and
excluding Egyptian ones which have /g/ instead), have the sound that is
represented in English by "j".  It is Spanish that does not have the sound.

Any information would be appreciated.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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