LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: George M Gibault <gmg at direct.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (05) [E]

Ben,

This is a harder question than you might think to answer. After the end of
the Second World War, Eastern Germany was cut off and given to Poland. The
population was resettled, many in northwestern Germany. The old north
Eastern Germany was called Prussia (West and East) and in most of the
Baltic coast part of it a form of Platt - rather similar to other north
German dialects was spoken. What is nowadays called east Germany (which I
think you were asking about) is historically considered mid Germany. the
northeastern corner of it is part of Pomerania, where a Platt dialect is
also spoken. The term Platt or Plaut means "flat" not because of its
intonation - but because this was the obvious difference between the
northern German lands and the mountainous south.

Platt dialects did not undergo the great consonant shift which made Hoch
Deutsch - standard German -  so different from our Lowland tongues. For
example Wasser in Hoch - water in English. On the other hand, Platt
dialects did not undergo the great vowel shift which made English sound so
different from other Germanic tongues. e.g. English "make" once sounded
more like "mock" - much closer to the vowel sound in Platt dialects today.
No standard Platt dialect ever emerged, and so there is a gradual change
from place to place in the local speech as you go from west to east across
northern Germany
- but if you go south you will suddenly notice a sharp change where the
great consonant shift takes hold.

The dialects spoken between France and Poland south of Denmark and north of
Cologne (roughly) thus mostly preserve a much older pronunciation - closer
to the English of the middle ages which you may have heard in
reconstructions of the original speech in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. The
same is true of braid (broad) Scots - in which, for example the "ch" in
nicht is pronounced as the "gh" in English night was in the Middle Ages.
(Compare German "nacht")

Pomerania was Baltic and Slavic before being Germanized and so their local
dialects will show some of these influences as well.

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From: Mike-club <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z]

Ron wrote in passing:
"Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which
Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used)"

Ron, do I take it that L-S was formerly
spoken North of the present "national
boundary"? My ignorance must seem
even more appalling if I confess to having
spent my school years in Rendsburg,
less than 100km from the border.
In those days we sold "Bausteine" in
support of the "Deutschtum in Nord-
Schleswig". And I (we) believed it, til
today. Who was there (in the early 50s)
to tell us otherwise? Not even the existence
of L-S was ever mentioned in school
(although it was still spoken all around us,
it was the "Bauerndialekt", the despised
"platt").
This demonstrates the ethnocidic charakter
of the mandatory "national" school systems,
the German one in any case.
Nevertheless, dear Lowlanders,
keep up the spirits and the good work!
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Mike,

> > "Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which
> > Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used)"
> Ron, do I take it that L-S was formerly
> spoken North of the present "national
> boundary"?

Well, think about it, Mike.  Among the "German" dialects, the "Low German"
ones have been the northernmost ones for ages.  On much of the peninsula
that contains the parts "Hulsteen/Holstein," "Sleswig/Schleswig/Slesvig" and
"Jylland" (Jutland), "Germans" and "Danes" have been coexisting in a sort of
overlap area, much of which went back and forth between German and Danish
rule.  Now there is a "German" minority in Denmark and a "Danish" minority
in Germany.  Would anyone *really* believe that what is now the
German-Danish border has always coincided with the northern borderline of
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) language?  (Recent northward spread is hardly a
possibility given that it is rare for underdog languages to enlarge their
territory, unless it is through faraway emigration.)  The two main
populations that originally overlapped in that area were speakers of
Lowlands Saxon and Southern Jutish (considered Danish dialects by most in
Denmark).  From what I read and hear, I gather there was a fair degree of
intermingling and mutual language adoption.  (Someone -- I forgot who --
wrote a book about "Low German on Danish substrate.)  Sure,
"High"-German-speakers and Standard Danish speakers have been among them for
a long time, especially in the upper echelon.  As I understand it, the
deathknell came with official partition at today's border after World War
II.  In the mutual agreement there was only talk of "Danish" and "German"
language rights for the respective minorities, consistent with the official
ethnic labels.  Thus, the suppression, low prestige and disregard of
Lowlands Saxon in Germany came to extend to Denmark, in administration,
schools, churches, media, etc.  What survival chance do you think a language
has that is "minority within minority"?  I do not know what the state of
affairs is for Southern Jutish in Germany these days, but I assume it is not
good either, although I have been told that there are still speakers of it,
even occasional radio blurbs.

I hardly think it is appropriate to point the finger at Denmark (though I
still wonder why North Frisian died out there -- perhaps for the same
reason?).  The traditional pattern is a general one, certainly in Europe:
national label > ethnic label > language assignment -- the basic assumptions
being based on the ideal that nation, ethnicity and language should be one,
that diversity is an inconvenience rather than a blessing.

Ben:

George's description (above) is right on the money.

The dialects are the West Pomeranian ones of Lowlands Saxon (Low German),
used in the eastern part of the state of Mecklenburg-Western-Pomerania
(German _Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_, LS _Mekelnborg-Vörpommern_), up to today's
Polish border, east of which East Pomeranian (or West Prussian) and East
Prussian dialects used to be used.

West Pomeranian dialects have some of the typically eastern
(Slavic-substrate) characteristics, albeit less pronounced than farther
east.  In most of them, _ö_ and _ü_ survive, while farther east they become
_e_ and _i_ repectively.  Also, most dialects of that area do not have the
eastern shift _g_ > _j_.  One Slavonic characteristic is the diminutive
suffix _-ing_ or _-ink_ (< _-inke_ < _-inka_), e.g., _Grötting_ 'grampa',
but also German-influenced _Großmurrer_, as in the dialect of Stralsund
(http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/probe05.htm):

<quote>
As ik noch 'n lütt'n Jung'n wer, türfte ich an jäidn Sommer norn Land gorn.
Mihn Grötting nähm mi dormals opp. Dat wiä de Tiit as wi noch in äers'n
Kriich wiern. Dor geff dat noch Boller, dor wier ne Kouh, dor haat wii wat
to drinkn - all dat watt wi to Huus inne Stadt noch nich hebbm däidn, dat
fünn' wi bi uns Großmurrer. Unn dor kräign wi dat denn okk. Dor schpäälten
wi okk rumm. Mihn Großmurrer kunn üwer haupt bloß Plattdütsch.
'Hochdeutsch' - dat künn se nie. Doovonn verschdoh se nix, datt harr se, as
se jung wer, schon ... nich anners mehr liert, unn dor bläif se denn okk.
Unn die ganze Familie ümm enn rümm, die wi dor kennen lernen däidn, dee wiä
noch àal so ähnlich. Dor käm so por lüdde Mägns, de käm'n dann 'rinn unn
schräin dann: "Morräing, kann ikk fütt di jätz, jätz morl ... 'n Schdück
Porräing kriegn?" Au' di Morrer däi wiä dann da föör unn säi denn: "Jawohl,
Älling gäign, igg gäff di gliik ein Boller Schmolltinken." Schmollt, door
wiä mi Morrer nich. Mi Murrer harr edd to häpp mit Schmollt nix ssu dounn,
de wiär vörre Boller. Unn dee kräign wii dor denn okk.
</quote>

The most famous writer of Northeastern LS is Fritz Reuter (1810-1874),
though his dialect of Stavenhagen might best be considered a southeast
Mecklenburg one.

<quote>
Döfft bün ick ok un heww ok Pädings hatt: vir Stück. Un wenn min vir Pädings
noch lewten un güngen mit mi äwer de Strat, denn würden de Lüd' still stahn
un seggen: "Kikt, wat sünd dat för lange Kirls! Nah so'n Ort kann ein up
Stunn'ns lang säuken; dat sünd noch Pädings!"
===
I was baptized, too, and used to have godfathers -- four of them. And if my
godfathers were still alive and would cross the street with me, then people
would stop and say, "Look, how tall those fellows are! It would take you
quite a while to find this sort these days. That's what I call
'godfathers'!"
</quote>

Low Saxon, in "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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