LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.12.04 (02) [E]

Thu Dec 4 16:39:51 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties

Sam said:

"Lowlanders: I'll toss another coal on the fire.  There's a linguistic
school that maintains that IE developed from the Semitic, which resides in
the Afro-Asiatic family."

I know Ron, that you have already made an attempt to steer this discussion
back to the Lowlands, but I hope you will allow me to make a related, but
slightly more Lowlands-related observation. I was already aware of the
attempts of various linguists to connect these various language families
into macro-families, and I have myself made lists of the numerous possibly
related words that exist in Indo-European and Semitic. (In the case of some
of these, of course, we are dealing with borrowing and not common linguistic
ancestry; this may be the case with the Hebrew (and related Arabic) numerals
mentioned by Heiko).

However, the other day I began to think about the Dutch word _aarde_
(English _earth_, Old English was I think _eorth_ , German Erde, and so on.
These cognates seem almost non-existent outside Germanic (though there is a
Greek word which I can't quite recall), and yet they are strikingly similar
to Semitic forms like Arabic _arD_, and Hebrew _erets_, which have the same
meaning.

A single word seems too little a basis on which to posit a Semitic
substratum somewhere in Europe, but it is difficult to believe that this is
mere coincidence. Or am I wrong and are there other Indo-European cognates
which would mean that the word could be descended from
Proto-Indo-European-Semitic?

John Duckworth
Preston, UK.

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.12.03 (02) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
...

>Thanks a lot for sharing that with us, FrÃ©dÃ©ric.

>One thing I really wonder about is how the
>researchers propose to
>reliably
...

>As far as I am concerned, anyone who comes up with a
>fail-safe method of
>determining past language change rates deserves a
>Nobel prize.  Before that,
>let's not even talk about determining the intricacies
>of linguistic provenance on the basis of a mere 200
>words ...

>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
-----------------------

Ron,

Although my opinion is not needed, I agree with you, except for "on the
basis of a mere 200 words ...".

It is the choice of the words and the handling of them that gives the value.

PS: I'm not going for the Nobel prize; a simple "hm, hm" by you, will do.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Language varieties

From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Language tree rooted in Turkey
Evolutionary ideas give farmers credit for Indo-European tongues.
27 November 2003
JOHN WHITFIELD

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Thanks a lot for sharing that with us, Frédéric.
One thing I really wonder about is how the researchers propose to reliably
gauge phonological change rates, given that rates appear to differ depending
on various factors, including the rate of intensity of foreign
influx/influence, and given that in early times most instances of
influx/influence must be assumed to have been unrecorded.

Hello Ron and Frédéric,
thanks for your insights and scholarly views on the study. I am afraid I
totally agree with you Ron. The study seems to have been based on scientific
averages with not much regard paid to human intent and motive in language
history.
Ron wrote ...
"As far as I am concerned, anyone who comes up with a fail-safe method of
determining past language change rates deserves a Nobel prize.  Before that,
let's not even talk about determining the intricacies of linguistic
provenance on the basis of a mere 200 words ..."
Enough said!!!!
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

John (above):

> A single word seems too little a basis on which to posit a Semitic
substratum
> somewhere in Europe, but it is difficult to believe that this is mere
coincidence.
> Or am I wrong and are there other Indo-European cognates which would mean
> that the word could be descended from Proto-Indo-European-Semitic?

I for one keep an open mind, would not hastily dismiss the possibility of
there being remnants of a very ancient shared connection, also with regard
to the words Heiko listed.  By the same token, I also bear in mind the
possibility of there being coincidents and loans.  That's my attitude until
someone comes up with a sizeable body of cognates and at least a basic sound
shift scheme.  At this juncture there can be at best interesting conjecture.

Theo (above):

> Although my opinion is not needed, I agree with you,

My life may not depend on your opinion, Theo, but I sure value it.

> It is the choice of the words and the handling of them that gives the
value.

That may be well and good, but how *do* you ensure the choice and handling
are fail-safe and optimal?  What *are* "basic" words?  Usually people try to
think of what may have been basic in "primitive" cultures, such as "fire,"
"hunt," and parts of the body.  Well, even such "basic" words may undergo
semantic shifts, may be replaced (by native or foreign words) and may
disappear altogether.  Usually most of the relatively recent changes are
known because of historical records.  But what if there are no such records?
Take for example English (and Scots?) "to hunt" (< OE _huntian_ <
_*hunton_), apparently a Germanic word but apparently without cognates in
other Modern Germanic languages, while common Germanic *_jaag-_ for 'to
hunt' apparently has no English and Scots cognates.  What if you had no
access to precontemporary records?  Look at the words for 'head' in Modern
Indo-European languages: e.g., Spanish _cabeza_, Portuguese _cabeça_,
Italian _testa_, French _tête_, German _Kopf_, _Haupt_, Dutch _hoofd_,
_kop_, Russian <голова> _golova_, Polish _glowa_ ... What happened there in
Slavonic?  If you relied merely on Modern Russian sources (and weren't aware
of <око> _oko_ in other contexts), you might wonder how _glaz_ fits in with
other Indo-European words for 'eye'.   And how come there are so few
cognates for "hand" in Indo-European, e.g., Russian <рука> _ruka_, Spanish
_mano_, Gaelic _dòid_, Welsh _llaw_, Albanian _dorë_, Persian <دست> _dast_,
and Dutch _hand_.

Peter (above):

> I am afraid I totally agree with you Ron.

There!  It may have been a scary thought at first, but it wasn't all that
bad now, was it?  ;)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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