LL-L "Language acquisition" 2003.12.09 (01) [E]

Wed Dec 10 16:12:14 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2003.12.09 (02) [E]

>The Lowlanders came up with words that are mainly
>nouns (words for
>food/drinks, personal pronouns, some speech acts
>about 'greetings'), whereas
>the Spaniards and Italians came up with verbs ?>like
'to eat, to want, to like'. Where does this
>difference come from - is that language or
>culture orientated?
>We haven't reached a conclusion, but I'm sure we'll
>continue this
>discussion. Therefore: what are your ideas? Which
>words are, in your opinion,
>important to start with, while learning a second
>>(third etc.) language? Any
>idea/expierence is welcome.

>Greetings,
>Jenny Huijben-Kool

Hello,

Well, a question much broader than my mind.
I stick to the lowlands and the nominal vs. verbal
question.
Some languages tend to be nominal, other ll. tend to
be verbal.
E.g.: English is more nominal than Dutch; comp: he is
the best swimmer vs. hij zwemt het best.
And German again is more nominal than Dutch.
This difference is to be found in translations. Often
you think a translation is good, but is doesn't read
smoothly, not as smoothly as the original. The reason
may be that the frequency of nominal or verbal
constructions is to high. [of course there are a lot
more of such differences.]

vr. gr.
Theo Homan
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Adaptation

Hi All

Ron you said

"What you said certainly makes a lot of sense to me.
However, what about people being thrown into a linguistically alien
environment with little or no native-language networking at (older) adult
age,
becoming more or less fluent in the new language but never losing their very
noticeable  "accents," while adolescents and children tend to succeed much
better under the same circumstances?"

Ok, my case - I learnt German in school and took it to
university level - up until my A-level, starting at
16, I only had English teachers teaching me German,
but since, I've always had German natives. I had a
long period after my degree where I didn't use my
German, but since 29 I've been living in Germany -
I've now been here for 3 years. I know very few
English speakers here, mainly cos I've tried to avoid
them, as I've only wanted to speak German. I do love
my own English dialect - as you're probably by now
aware - but I also love for example the Berlin dialect
where I live (something which not many Germans would
say!).

But, my German accent is appalling! I would like to
keep a 'slight' foreign accent, as it's a good
conversation starter, but when it's as bad as mine it
can sometimes be quite annoying, especially when
people switch to English for me - in which case I
continue to speak German until they get the hint. I've
had English student friends here who are in their
early 20s, and they've managed to produce German with
a much better accent than me. I study phonetics, so
should, in theory, be in a good position to alter my
accent. So what can be the explanation for this?

I have however noticed a few interesting points with
continuously speaking a different language. Often when
Germans speak English to me, I don't realise that
they've spoken English, I understand it to the same
level as I understand their German, and I don't think
my brain's quick enough to distinguish...

Words go. There are certain terms which are so common
in German that I often think of the German term before
the English one. I'm going to be moving soon so words
like 'WG', 'Mitbewohner' etc. come more easily to me
now than 'shared flat' or 'flat mate'. And I'm not
even sure how I'd translate 'Verwaltung' without
looking in a dictionary.

I say things now like 'ach' and 'aua' more often that
'oh' and 'ow/ouch'.

I've lost a lot of slang. When I'm back in England my
friends use expressions that I haven't heard for a
long time - I understand it, but would probably not
think to produce it myself.

I sometimes translate German expressions when using
English, which although they have perfect grammar,
sound foreign.

I get a bit confused with prepositions nowadays. If
you only ever hear a foreign preposition being used
then you tend to use this in your own language too.

My intonation is becoming more German when speaking
English.

The next thing I've noticed, which seems to be the
latest development in my loss of English, is that I'm
now occassionally using German word order when
speaking English.

The changes seem to have gone in this order - it would
be interesting to find out if any studies have been
done on this.

All of these things are fine (my German is improving!)
but I still can't get rid of this damn English accent!
And I'm now in the situation where my German is good -
although nowhere near native language standard, but my
English is now also seriously lacking :-/

Gary

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language acquisition

Gary,

As far as I know, in part from my own experience, what you described (above)
isn't unusual at all.  Acquisition of a new language is one thing, keeping
it apart from your own language (as well as possibly from previously learned
foreign languages) is another matter, another skill, just like translation
and interpretation are separate skills that are independent of language
proficiency levels.

You have been in the midst of a very intensive immersion language learning
experience, and your brain is quite preoccupied with it, not only constantly
absorbing and processing new material and converting it into actively used
data, but it also constantly rearranges its priority list, sorting out what
is more important than what ... all that in a sort of constant "emergency
survival mode," which is very taxing and tiring, if you are aware of it or
not.

Your brain seems to have made a couple of decisions for you, if you agree
with them or not.

Your brain seems to have shoved English onto the back seat, and when you
suddenly need it, your English has a hard time climbing from the back seat
into the driver's seat and reacquainting itself with all the buttons and
controls, but after a while it gets the hang of it again -- except, you
rarely give it enough time to do so.

Your brain seems to have decided for you that your pronunciation doesn't
need as much work (for now) as do other aspects of language.  It probably
based this unilateral executive decision on the assumption that you are
getting by with your pronunciation as it is right now, disregarding your
emotionally based issues with it, and, again, it puts more energy into other
language acquisition areas.  The downside of this is that you may end up
staying on this phonological level unless you make some sort of special
effort.  You could get yourself one of those computer language programs that
makes you repeat phrases and then evaluates your pronunciation and tells you
what's amiss, comparing your sound curves with those of a native speaker.  A
couple of hours per week of this ought to make a difference.  As you
mentioned, "a bit of an accent" isn't always a bad thing, actually rarely
is.  It can be a conversation starter, as you mentioned, and many people
will find it attractive ... ;-)  But once you feel secure enough with the
other aspects of your new language you could try and tweak your "accent" to
a level at which it doesn't embarrass you anymore.

Also, once you have settled more securely into German, you are able to
devote more energy to separate skills such as code switching and
translating.  It's a matter of practice.  I do poorly when I haven't done a
lot of switching for a while, and at the best of times I can freely switch
back and forth between languages without mixing them up.  When I lived in
Israel I used to switch between up to four languages in work and social
situations.  After a while it was automatic and seemingly effortless, but
when suddenly, unexpectedly, I was talked to in Danish, which I had learned
several years earlier, half of the "Danish" out of my mouth was Hebrew and
Yiddish, with which I was most occupied, which thus occupied my brain's
"front bedrooms," at that time.  However, my Danish returned as this
particular contact continued.

Your English isn't disappearing as your German is improving.  It's taking a
rest and is getting a bit stiff in the process.  It's just a matter of
working on your retrieval skills.  I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I
were you, just enjoy the process.  I take it you have already noticed that
language learning comes with some definite perks: becoming more acutely
aware of "stuff" about your own language, and gaining more insight into
language generally.  Believe me: it'll be even easier, more enjoyable and
more rewarding when you learn the next foreign language.

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

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