LL-L "Lexical usage" 2003.02.04 (04) [E/S]

Tue Feb 4 15:37:56 UTC 2003

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexical usage" 2003.02.02 (01) [E/S]

 am not an expert at Scots, but "orra" looks like "current" or "other."

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From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexical usage" 2003.02.03 (05) [E/S]

Thanks, Elsie and Sandy.

Sorry Elsie - I actually knew what the word 'orra' meant - it means 'odd' in
the sense of 'spare' or 'peculiar', and can also mean 'unsuitable' or
something like that. Usages which I am familiar with from the North East
include:

'Fool, orra wather' - of bad weather
'Fool, orra things' - of cigarettes, by a non-smoker.
'orra bitties o wid' - ie, odd bits of wood left over from a joinery job.
'I'm no seekin ti be orra but - did ye see Lynford Christie on the telly the
ither nicht? Imagine thon comin i the bed aside ye...' A woman on the said
runner's dimensions in his cycling shorts.
'orra jokes' - blue jokes.

The meanings of 'odd', 'spare', 'unfitting', 'unsuitable', and similar is
behind these usages. The 'orraman' on a traditional farm was the odd job
man - the person who did all the jobs that didn't require specialisation.

I had intended to make it clear that I actually knew the meaning of the
word, but by that time, having quoted some Scots, I had slipped into Scots
(as, on re-reading this, I see I have done again) so perhaps my intention
wasn't clear. The reason I gave these quotations was that the use of 'orra'
in them doesn't correspond to any use of the word that I know. I suspected -
and Sandy's comments confirm this - that it is actually misuse - a result of
dictionary dredging by someone who doesn't actually know the word or how to
use it.
>>
>> Would anyone like to comment on the use of the word 'orra' in the
>> following
>> quotations from recent Scots publications?
>>
>> 'The meenister gied oot the orra answer but maistlins she screivit aw the
>> questions doon.
>
>This is yiblins a ower-lÃteral tak on 'orra' = 'occasional', duin in
>ignorance o the ither meanins o the wird. 'Antrin' micht be a better wird
>here, micht it no?

Antrin is for shuir the word at maks sense here - 'odd' i the ither sense.
>
>I dout ye micht weel girn aboot the uise o 'scrieve' here an aa!

I coud - an I did - but I gaither it fell on deif - or aiblins dowf - lugs.
The'r a hale fouth o ither things I coud girn aboot tae. Girnin is ae thing
I'm guid at! (Houaniver, my girnin disna hae eneuch clout ti lat me lowp
shortleets efter I'v been ootwaled at the interview.)
>
>> 'Fae the submissions ingaithered, it is evident that
>> monolingualism has been
>> lookit on by British society as the orra standart.'
>
>I'v nae idea what this micht mean. The hale sentence isna vera guid Scots
bi
>ony standard.

Ti me, 'orra standart' is nearhaund a oxymoron - the oreeginal wis 'normal
standard.'
>
>> 'In his submission, Matthew Fitt states there gey few weys Scots is or
can
>> be teachit in the noo: (1) lippenin on the orra lane teacher takkin an
>> interest in Scots, '
>
>This I wad tak tae mean that surplus teachers could tak a interest in
Scots,
>or something like that.

I wad say it's 'antrin' at's nott here tae the - 'odd' lane teacher (leuk up
the dictionar - finnd 'orra').

(BTW - gin Colin is listenin - I see ye'v the mak 'notten' i yer beuk. Wad
ye uise that in contexts like whaur I'v 'nott' abuin?)
>
>> ' Integration o initiatives is best won til wi the oncome o a Leids
Policy
>> for Scotland (see Australia an Sooth Africa), that estaiblishes an orra
>> framewark for the bringin oot o the leids o Scotland an for their
>> provision
>> in education, local government an ither public sectors.'
>
>What rubbish is this?! My automatic translÃterÃ¢tion progrÃ m wad mak a
better
>job o'd!

Whit aboot 'orra' tho? I hinna leukit up the oreeginal, an I'm nane the
wiser. But, sin it's been pitten forrit bi the CPG in a offeecial blad, this
maun be guid Scots - speecially cause it comes frae the same schuil at
writes beuks for bairns. I dout we better aa stert writin like this nou. The
word 'orra' nou means whit it means in this text - whitiver that is. Whit it
means ti us at actually says it disna maiter. Hing on a meentie, tho - 'orra
standart' is beginnin ti mak some sense efter aa!
>
>> (Thon anes aa frae the 'licht' translate o the recent report ti the
>> education, cultur an sport comatee.)
>
>Oh ay! I'm tryin tae keep my neb oot o aa that!

Whit wey? Sae's the Scots at's uised at offeecial level can gang on bein a
'orra standart'?
>
>> The raison I'm spierin is at I canna lift thae meanins ava, an
>> I'm wonderin
>> if this is hou 'orra' is uised in Central dialects, or if it's no uised
in
>> thae dialects nou, an thir uisses is awin ti  fause analogy wi English
>> 'odd' - tho that wadna expone aa the uisses abuin.
>
>I'v never heard 'orra' uized in Central dialecks ava - mibbie this could
>explain hou it's gotten fanklet here!

I dout that. Ye can see hou a word-for-word translate o 'odd' wad gie some o
thaim, but I canna see hou 'orra standart' an 'orra framewark' kythed. If I
wis a teacher, I wad be sair scunnert ti be caa'd 'orra'! But thare micht be
ane - or mibbie mair - o thon Freudian slips thare, somewey.

(BTW - I canna read the diacritic characters in yer e-mails nou. Is this
chynge frae the ASCII international character set ti Unicode extensions
raelly necessar? Hou monie fowk leukin for Scots on the wab is gaun ti be
bathert wi't? I seem ti mynd at Colin haes sae faur e'en resistit lairnin
SAMPA - richt. Colin?)

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Lexical usage" 2003.02.03 (05) [E/S]

on 4/2/03 7:52, [sandy at scotstext.org] wrote

> I'v never heard 'orra' uized in Central dialecks ava - mibbie this could
> explain hou it's gotten fanklet here!
In mah years in Embro, Sandy, ferm labourers goat cawd 'Orramen'. Ye'd e'en
see adverts fur thaim in the "Edinburgh Evening News". Thairs e'en a great
awld boathy sang 'The Guid Orra Man" whair the singer tells hoo he stirted
up oan a ferm when he wis a laddie and learnt aw the Trade frae tattie
howkin tae wurkin the hoarse ploough. He ends up as a polis though.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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