LL-L "Names" 2003.02.23 (06) [E/LS]

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From: Peter Meylof <p.meylof at planet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.02.23 (02) [E/LS]

From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.02.22 (01) [E/F/LS]

Moin, Peter,

Du schreevst:

From: Peter Meylof <p.meylof at planet.nl>
Subject: Hollaandse invlood

Se bint noe bezig nen biebel in it Twentsch te vertaaln. Ik heb ok a ne
nummer van 'Asterix en Obelix' in it Twentsch in mien besit. Noe mut it
toch nit gekker wörn!!! Wat die maffe Tukkers al wa nit doot um dee
Sproake hoog te hoaln. Apart folk, die Tukkers. Joa, ik weet wa.

Hebt se bie oeleu ok van dit soort kraanke acties? Loa heurn.

Wat meent "Tukkers"?

In uus Platt (anne Münnen von de "Elbe") waard "Tukkern" bruukt föör 'n
Koordenspeel; opp Hauchdüütsch heeit datt "Doppelkopf".

Greutens

Fiete.

Moi Fiete,

'Tukkers' is ne bienoam veur Twenthenaarn. Hef d'rum in disse contriejn nit
ech völ met nen Koordnspel te maakn. Mear wat nit is, kan nog komn.

Goodgoan,

Peter

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.02.23 (04) [E]

Luc wrote:

"There is a name in Ireland that intreges me. I live in Oekene a
village that is part of "Roeselare". I wonder if the city of "Rosslar"
in your country has any connections in its history with our regions.
Roeselare and Rosslar are very particular names without any doublures
somewhere else in the world(If not let me know please).
In Flemish "Roeselare" means an open place in the woods (lare) for
horses (ros).The oldest written form is "Roslar" (822)."

Interesting. Thanks for exercising my brain! Unfortunately it is just
pleasant coincidence, although with a caveat that I will come to.

Rós Láir or Rosslare is a port town in Co. Wexford (Wexford itself means
"waterlogged island" _weis fjord_ in Norse according to the sources I have
consulted), in the extreme south-east of Ireland, with longstanding links to
Wales, manifested today in a busy ferry service.

_Rós_ in Irish has a number of possible meanings depending on the
topography, but is usually translated 'headland' (it can also mean 'wood')
although in its maximal sense it means 'wooded land sloping toward a water
source, usually a sea'. (My personal perception of Irish _rós_ has been
contaminated by Cornish, where _rosh_ means, usually, a picturesque
heavily-wooded cliffside area or a secluded thicket near a stream, like a
meadow.) It this sense it is similar to _leitir_ 'hillside sloping to a
river where rainwater runs off'.

_Láir_ means simply 'centrally placed, at the centre of, middle'.

Rós Láir therefore means 'central headland' or 'centrally placed sea-slope'
depending on your intepretation. No horses or woods here, sadly!

However, there *is* a tenuous connection to Flemish. Wexford was settled in
1169 by Anglo-Normans from south Wales - one area of which (if memory serves
me, the Gower) had been heavily settled by Flemings. There can be little
doubt that Flemish-speakers were a part of the retinues that migrated to
Wexford at the time - including, of course, Rosslare - and I am sure there
are many Norman French surnames of Flemish origin or flavour in the area.

An Irish translation of your Roeselare would be - at least as far as I my
usage goes - something like _Cúil na gCapaill_ or 'nook of the horses'. This
would have been bastardised into English as something like _Coolnegapell_ or
_Colgapell_ (cf: Coleraine, from Ir. _Cúil Raithin_ 'ferny nook or space').
Another possibility is _Maigh na gCapaill_ or 'plain of the horses',
although _maigh_ - also _má_ and _magh_ - usually means 'wide open space',
particularly the sort sitting before an imposing hill.

Go raibh maith agatsa!

Criostóir.

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.02.23 (04) [E]

Gabriele Kahn wrote:
"You must not forget that quite a few Germans are still alive today who used
to call the towns of Koenigsberg, Danzig and others their home before their
whole world began to crash around them and they were forced into exile
forever, leaving behind their dead, their homes, their very existences and
all their childhood memories. To them, there is no such place as
Kaliningrad; it will be Koenigsberg forever."

You are of course absolutely correct - I had forgotten the nightmarish
experiences of the expelled Germans of the East when I stated that they
"clung" to Danzig, Siebenburgen, Klausenburg et al. Apologies.

Will these placenames necessarily fall out of use, though? Surely refugees
would, as a point of honour or duty, pass on 'their' version to their
children rather than legitimise their expulsion by using the new name?

(Although the arrival of Slavic- and Romanian-speaking Aussiedler, who only
know Klausenburg as Cluj or Lemberg as Lviv might be an influence on rapid
recognition-shift.)

Go raibh maith agat

Criostóir.

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