LL-L "Ethnicity & nationality" 2003.01.16 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 16.JAN.2003 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8
 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
 Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
 Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or
 sign off at <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity & nationality" 2003.01.15 (13) [E]
Thomas wrote:

"I have wondered what my status would be. My father was a Hungarian national
from Siebenbuergen who wound up in Germany thanks to a stint as a sort of
commando in the Luftwaffe. He became quite fluent in Plattdeutsch (he loves
to speak Plattdeutsch)and Hochdeutsch but was stateless. Because he was
stateless, so was I. The first time I became a citizen anywhere was in the
U.S. My mother was a German citizen."

That's simple - you'd be a German (and so EU) citizen by descent, because
your mother was one (check with your nearest German embassy or consulate).
"Stateless" is a tricky term. If your father had renounced his Romanian
citizenship (and I presume by "Hungarian national from Siebenburgen" you
mean he was a Transylvanian Hungarian-speaker - and so a Romanian citizen -
rather than a Hungarian citizen) or had it removed from him, he could have
become stateless, but if he did not renounce it or have it removed he would
still, I presume, be an "active" Romanian citizen, even if he did not have a
Romanian passport, etc. You could apply for a Romanian passport on this
basis, I believe. The easiest way to clarify this would be to contact your
nearest Romanian embassy or consulate. Interestingly, if he was
Hungarian-speaker, you may (I'm not sure) be eligible for a so-called
"Hungarian status card" giving you residency rights in Hungary as a member
of the Hungarian minority in Romania. That is, of course, if Romania (or
Hungary) permit dual citizenship, now that you are a US citizen.

Ron wrote:

"However, exactly what criteria are used and how they are being used
to determine if someone is "German" eludes me. Does it include any of the
minority languages and cultures? My guess is that Lowlands Saxon ("Low
German") would pass the test because it used to be considered (and is still
considered, at least privately) part of German. Frisian might pass the test
too, given sufficient explanations and exact geographic data. Sorbian (a
West Slavonic language unique to Germany)? Hmmm ... I think an English-
and Sorbian-speaking person whose ancestors emigrated from Germany to Texas,
for instance, would have a lot of explaining and pushing to do and would
need to show some sort of ancient birth certificates. A Romany speaker
with no German proficiency but ancestry in Germany? I dunno ... It would be
hard without papers to prove it. But then again, perhaps I am
unjustifiably underestimating the knowledge, flexibility and openmindedness
of today's average German immigration official. I hope I am."

So far as I'm aware, the language requirement (where there is one) is for
standard German, Ron. In some cases I would imagine this entailed Platt- and
Plaut-speaking ethnic Germans in the ex-Soviet Union learning standard
German and then demonstrate their language proficiency or Germanness on this
basis*. The same would be true, I suspect, of ethnic Sorbs and Frisians. In
the Soviet Union and elsewhere in ex-communist states, ethnic Germans -
regardless of whether they were by background or inclination Platt, Frisian,
Sorb or whatever - were encouraged to learn standard German as their "ethnic
language" when they were encouraged to investigate their culture.

*I presume, although I am not certain, that evidence of belonging to the
official Soviet-era "German nationality" - whether by presenting a passport
with "NATIONALITY: GERMAN" or a birth certificate with it or whatever - is
sufficient to prove one's Germanness. This could explain why so many Russian
speakers were able to migrate. I would imagine that those who were deported
to Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, etc. would be the ones have to pass the language
test, as I understand that once they were deported, their status as ethnic
Germans was abolished as punishment for whatever they were supposed to have
done. The Roma above would be a case in point. Under Soviet nationality law,
they would probably be classified as Tsigane, not German. If they could
produce evidence of German ancestry but no German status, they would, I
presume, have to undergo the language test.

The same situation occurs in Singapore, where all members of the Chinese
ethnic group are treated as if Mandarin is their only language (even though
many, perhaps even a majority, may be Hakka- or Cantonese-speakers), and,
more incongruously, all members of the Indian ethnic group are treated as if
they Tamils. Such policies are well-intentioned, I think, but inevitably
over-simplify a situation through bureaucratic shorthand ("all Chinese speak
Mandarin", "all Germans speak standard German" etc.), with the inevitable
result that the groups in question have to learn yet another language that
is not their own (enforced multilingualism).

Most of the above is conjecture, however.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ethnicity & nationality

Thanks for the above, Criostóir.

> The same situation occurs in Singapore, where all members of the Chinese
ethnic group are
> treated as if Mandarin is their only language (even though many, perhaps
even a majority,
> may be Hakka- or Cantonese-speakers), ...

That would be predominantly Min (閩 Hokkien, Fujianese, especially Min-Nan
閩南), with minorities of other, mostly coastal and southern Chinese
languages, such as Yue (粵, Cantonese), Hakka (客家 Kejia), and also some Wu (滬
Hu, "Shanghainese") and Mandarin (北方話).  The percentage of native Mandarin
speakers is about 8% of Singapore's population, that of Min close to 30%,
but the percentage of Mandarin speakers is likely to increase.  The
promotion of Mandarin as a Chinese lingua franca, including education, (as
elsewhere) has been leading to fairly high levels of proficiency, and
Mandarin will probably be adopted as first language by more and more Chinese
Singaporeans, with English as their second language.  (Bear in mind that
these days most linguists agree that these are Chinese languages, though
"dialect" [方言 fangyan] is politically correct, with "sub-dialect" or "local
speech" [地話 dihua] instead of "dialect."  This would be similar to calling
Germanic a language, and what we call "languages" would be called
"dialects.")  This is reinforced by the use of Modern Standard Written
Chinese (普通話 Putonghua, 國語 Guoyu, 華語 Huayu) that more or less reflects the
Mandarin language (while Classical Written Chinese, 文言文 Wenyanwen, reflects
some ancient language and thus is more abstract and favors no modern
"dialect.")

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================