LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.26 (04) [A/D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JAN.2003 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: cups <cups at mweb.co.za>
Subject: Gegewens en taal

Beste Reinhard/Ron
Absolute hartlik dank vir die inligting van julle rakende "Noome".
Dit help ongelooflik baie.
Julle vraag aan die einde van julle email aan my lui:
"Het jy Frans as bron van jou van al uitgesluit?"
Om eerlik te wees Frans bly prominent in die hele agternaam onderwerp.
Ek self het al in daardie rigting gaan soek om oplossings vir Noome te vind.

Wat interessant is, is dat "Noome" in Suid Afrika in een of ander periode
deur een of ander familie lid verander is na "Noomé"(Noo_my).
Daar word nou beweer dat Noo_my afgelei is van die Franse naam of woord
"Denoomé"(D'noo_my).Hoekom weet ek nie.En hoekom nou juis Frans is n ander
vraag.
"De" weet ek beteken dieselfde as "von"in Duits en "van" in Nederlands en
Afrikaans.
In Engels is dit natuurlik "from".
Nou al wat dit vir my deur laat is dat dit beteken "kom van Noome".Dit is
maar net n raaiskoot.

Of "Noome" wel verband kan hou met Frans is iets om vas te stel.Wel dit kan
seker moontlik
wees as in ag geneem word dat die Nederlande en die noorde van Frankryk in
die
Frankiese en middeleeue so nou verbind was.Dit is nou volgens my kennis.

Wel dit is al wat ek weet op die stadium maar julle inligting help reeds.

Beste groete.
Owen Noome.

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From: dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.25 (01) [A]

Noome.

In Zuid-Vlaanderen, het  gedeelte van Noord-Frankrijk waar nog Vlaams
gesproken
wordt, spreekt men over "Mi moeie è' mi 'noom"
(meaning my  aunt and my  oncle).
Dit misschien een verklaring. Ik gis maar.

denis dujardin
vlaanderen

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From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.25 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger Thijs wrote under "Resources" today:

> One paragraph deals with "egyptians".
> Could "gypsies" be meant with this?
> (In my dialect we used "bohemers" (bohemians) for gypsies)

Good guess, Roger!  It is well established that English _gipsy_ or _gypsy_
(earlier _gypcyan_ or _gypsen_) originally meant "Egyptian."  The people
thus named are the "Sinte" ~ "Sinti" (< Indian _Sind(i)_ ~ _Hind(i)_) and
"Rom(a)" (Romany _Rromale_, with a uvular /r/, thus probably originally
*_Ghomale_, plural of *_Ghoma_, a tribal name, not connected with Rome,
Romania or Rum [the European part of Turkey]).  (Romany distinguishes <r>
and <rr>.)  They arrived in the Lowland at the latest in the 15th century.
Their origin was in northwestern India and parts of today's Pakistan.  As
they left Asia for Europe, they were divided up into two main streams: one
went through the Balkans (many of them later enslaved in Romania for
centuries), and the other one went through North Africa and entered Europe
through the Iberian peninsula (French _gitanes_ < Spanish _gitanos_
"gypsies" < _Egipcio_ 'Egyptian').  Western Europe is home to descendants of
both great migrant groups.  "Egyptian" may have been "factual" in some cases
(of North African descendants), but was most likely a fanciful name for
various "exotic" people, hence also German _Zigeuner_, Hungarian _cigány_,
Russian "цыган" (cygan), etc., all meaning "Egyptian."

In Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the original name for these people is
_Tater(s)_ ['t_hQ:t3`] (with several versions in Scandinavian), originally
probably denoting "Tatar," the name of a Turkic-speaking group, once a
catch-all name for "Easterner" or "Asian."  I am not sure if Lowlands Saxon
got the name from Scandinavian or Scandinavian got it from Lowlands Saxon.
My hunch is that it is a Scandinavian loan in Lowlands Saxon.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

From: Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: Etymology

I`d say it`s more likely that the Scandinavian languages took the word from
Low Saxon, as LS influence was so strong, and the continental Scand.
Languages have  a huge amount of loan-vocab. From LS.

Dan

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Owen (bowe):

> Of "Noome" wel verband kan hou met Frans is iets om vas te stel.Wel dit
kan seker
> moontlik
> wees as in ag geneem word dat die Nederlande en die noorde van Frankryk in
die
> Frankiese en middeleeue so nou verbind was.Dit is nou volgens my kennis.

Ik het amper die Franstalige Hugenote bedoel, wat uit Frankryk na
Noord-Duitsland en de Nederlands-talige gebiede vlug, onder die vroeë
Laaglandse koloniste was en later Afrikaans-talig word.  Daarom het baie
Suid-Afrikaners Franse vanne, en die Franse taal het die Afrikaanse taal nog
meer als die Nederlandse taal beïnvloed.

Dan regarding Lowlands Saxon _Tater_ (above):

> I`d say it`s more likely that the Scandinavian languages took the word
from Low Saxon,
> as LS influence was so strong, and the continental Scand. Languages have
a huge
> amount of loan-vocab. From LS.

Don't be too sure about that, Dan!  Yes, most of the loaning went from LS
into Scandinavian, but some also went the other way, which is frequently
overlooked outside the area of studiying LS dialects of Schleswig-Holstein.

Consider the following:

(1) Danish has _sigøjner_ for 'Roma', 'gipsy' (cf. German _Zigeuner_).

(2) Swedish has _tattare_ for 'Roma', 'gipsy' (cf. LS _Tater_).

(3) Sweden, too, was home to Hanseatic colonies.

(4) Sweden, too, occupied part of what is now Northern Germany.

(5) Sweden had long-standing contacts with Finnic and Russian speakers,
having colonized various areas around the Baltic Sea and had earlier also
colonized areas of Russia (the name _Rus_ having denoted "Swede" at one
point).  Russian contacts with Tatar, Bashkir and other European Turkic
peoples go back a long way, as go Uralic-Turkic contacts (e.g., in the Ural
area).  Colonizning Swedes undoubtedly came into contact with Tatars, e.g.,
in the lower Volga reaches.

(Incidentally, interesting to note Finnish _romaani_ for 'Roma', 'gipsy'.
And what is the origin of Estonian _mustlane_?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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