LL-L "Language policies" 2003.01.28 (06) [E]

Tue Jan 28 19:56:53 UTC 2003

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From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.01.27 (06) [E]

Colin Wilson wrote:
>
> At 18:30 27/01/03, Andy Eagle wrote:
>
> >The British government agreed to the following with the government of
> >Ireland establishing implementation bodies (For the Good Friday
Agreement):
> >
> >"Annex 2, DEFINITIONS, Part 5, Language
> >1.7 "Ullans" is to be understood as the variety of the Scots language
> >traditionally found in parts of Northern Ireland and Donegal.
"Ulster-Scots
> >cultural issues" relate to the cultural traditions of the part of the
> >population of Northern Ireland and the border counties which is of
Scottish
> >ancestry and the influence of their cultural traditions on others, both
> >within the island of Ireland and in the rest of the world."
> >
> >Here it clearly states "the variety of the Scots language traditionally
> >found in parts of Northern Ireland and Donegal".
>
> Interesting: they seem to be taking different positions on the matter
> according to the context. If it needs to be pointed out, the Good Friday
> Agreement has no bearing on Scotland, and so here they can afford not to
> be so emphatic about the distinction between Scots and Ulster Scots in
> order to treat the two differently. To say that, of course, is to assume
> that they are using the term "Ullans" here to mean the same as "Ulster
> Scots" as used in relation to the European Charter. It's hard to see
> what else it might mean, but I find the need to use a different name
> equally hard to understand.
>
> As far as the Charter (which does apply to Scotland as well as to
> Northern Ireland) is concerned, Scots and Ulster Scots are named
> separately, as the page at the URL below will confirm:
>
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/DeclareList.asp?NT=148&CM=8&DF=17/03/02
> The relevant part is at the very end of the page.

And there it says:
"b) The United Kingdom declares, in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1
of the Charter that it recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the
Charter’s definition of a regional or minority language for the purposes of
Part II of the Charter."

Note: "it recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the Charter’s
definition of A regional or minority language" [My capitals] 'A regional or
minority language' and not 'regional or minority languageS'. I am
interpreting Ulster Scots to simply mean Scots spoken in Ulster much as one
would use Aberdeenshire Scots or Ayrshire Scots etc. or for that matter
Essex English, Suffolk English etc.

Strangely the Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement itself has:

"Rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity.
Economic, Social and Cultural Issues

3. All participants recognise the importance of respect, understanding and
tolerance in relation to linguistic diversity, including in Northern
Ireland, the Irish language, Ulster-Scots and the languages of the various
ethnic communities, all of which are part of the cultural wealth of the
island of Ireland."

Here Ulster-Scots, using a Hyphen . Is this is then to be interpreted as a
(compound) Noun implying Ulster-Scots is a different entity thus a different
language than 'Scots'?

What would be interesting to know is on what basis the Government accepted
Scots to be a 'regional or minority language' (it's plain that Scots is a
regional language in a UK sense) in the first place. I assume they were
presented with some kind of report justifying such a decision. Does such a
report exist and where can one get a copy?

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.01.27 (12) [E]

Ian James Parsley  Wrote:>

> Actually I would take the opposite line - the
> establishment of the Ulster-Scots Agency was precisely
> the time to be precise about what the language is. In
> signing the charter the term 'Scots and Ulster Scots'
> is hardly emphatic and probably only appears to
> confirm that Ulster Scots is included under Scots.
>
> However, this is a comparatively minor argument. The
> question remains: what, precisely, is the value of
> treating them separately?
>
> There's value for the government alright - if it gives
> money to the language in one jurisdiction for
> political reasons it can get away with not doing so in
> another jurisdiction, by claiming they are separate
> cases!
>
> Certainly Scots themselves should be strongly arguing
> the 'one language' line - if Scots gets GBP 1.5m in
> Ireland, what should it get in Scotland?
>
> Or am I just getting mischievous in my frustration?!!
> Ian.

I don't think the Government is indulging in 'divide and rule'. I'm pretty
sure the government couldn't care less about Scots and was only reacting to
pressure and decided to be PC and included Scots in the European Charter. In
Ulster its recognition is obviously part of the peace process. If one side
gets some sweeties the otherside has to have some as well. I assume the
'differing' terminology is simply a result of whoever was doing the lobbying
at the time. Since the governemnt and their officials working on these
documents couldn't care less about Scots, probably had no idea what it is
and where anxious to make progress on 'more important' matters they simply
agreed to what ever the lobbyist said and maybe didn't notice possible
contradictions in terminology.

Though the undeniable fact is that Scots is spoken in two (devolved)
jurisdictions. It is only the perogative of the British government to sign
international charters or treaties etc. But the European Charter bears on
devolved responsibilities. Since the British government signed the charter
is it their resposibility to see to it that the obligations are fulfilled or
can this be delegated to the devolved jurisdictions? Can the devolved
jurisdictions refuse to implement (or at least to finance implementation)
the Charter on the grounds that it is a UK government Charter and not one
agreed to by the devolved jurisdictions?

I have the impression that implementation is a devolved matter.

Is the money spent on Scots in Ulster directly from the UK government
specifically for Scots or via a devolved administration deciding to allocate
such funds to Scots out of its overall devolved budget? - albeit donated by
London.

Andy Eagle

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