LL-L "Etymology" 2003.03.01 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject:  LL-L "Etymology" 2003.02.28 (10) [D/E]

> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.02.28 (05) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>
> >the phrase "A'd lay me doon an dee" ("I'd
> > lay me down and die") started me thinking about a possible etymological
> link
> > with _doon_ (also written _doun_) and the English cognate _down_ with
> > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _duun_ (NL _doen_) [du:n] 'drunk'.  I know
it
> > seems like a stretch, but think of it: "He is down" = "He is drunk"
> doesn't
> > really sound that far off, does it?
>
> Actually, I had always assumed that was the case, and that maybe some
German
> sailors picked up that expression and brought it back home simply because
> they liked the sound of it.
>
> And thank you SO much, Ron, for Annie Laurie. I, too, have been stuck with
> it ever since you first mentioned it.
>
> Gabriele Kahn
>
> ----------
>
> From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.02.28 (05) [E]
> Ron wrote:
> "Apparently, Scots _doon_ ~ _doun_ and English _down_ come from Old
English
> _dûne_ which started off as _adûne_ = "off/down-dune" (_dûn_ 'dune'),
> thus
> something like "downhill"."
>
> I remember discovering this etymology as a child, and I wasn't convinced
by
> it even back then. From what I recall, the theory is that Old English
_dune_
> was a borrowing from Celtic - cf: Ir. _dún_ 'a fortified hill', later
> expanded to mean 'a fort', (e.g., Dún na nGall 'fort of the foreigners',
> anglice Donegal) and Corn. _dinas_ 'a fort'.
>
> (And _dinas_ is hardly the best loanword candidate for _down_. People do
not
> descend from hill-forts - they are dragged out of them, that's the whole
> point of building one as a defence. A more appropriate and understandable
> borrowing would have been the Brythonic term that developed into Corn.
> _brea_, the ubiquitous word for 'hill', or even Old Corn. _pen_ - Modern
> Corn. _pedn_ which performs the same function but means literally 'head'.)
>
> It seems absurd to me - why would Old English lack a word for such a
> fundamental concept as 'down' when it had 'up' and why would it formulate
a
> new word based on a substantial semantic shift from a Celtic borrowing?
>
> There are very, very few Celtic words in Old English, presumably because
of
> the almost total segregation between the two groups. Why, then, would Old
> English speakers base such a core concept as 'down' on a toponym borrowed
> from their enemies?
>
> The true etymology of _down_ must be Germanic.
>
> Go raibh maith agat
>
> Criostóir.
>
> ----------
>

There seem to be two words here, if we are to believe the "Wurdboek fan 'e
Fryske Taal": (for Westerlauwer Frisian)
There is the word _dún_ = Dutch _duin_, English _down_ = dune.
(the word dune in English comes either via French, where it is Frankish
loan, or maybe from Middle Dutch (from which German Düne stems), hence the
different vowel)

But there is also a word _dûn_ (in areas neighbouring Saxon speaking areas)
which has
a dialectical variant _dún_ as well (with regular û --> ú change before -n,
which is an autochthonous sound law). Note that the Saxon vowel [u] is
preserved near Saxon areas, which shows influencing by these Saxon dialects,
I think.
This word means "drunk". The Groningen dialect also has _doen_ [dun] meaning
"drunk".
According to WFT this word is related to _dúnje_ and _dúnsk_ (with variants
_deunje_
and _deunsk_, I guess because of the nasal vowel (this happens more often))
which mean "running around wildly (of cows, but fig. as well for people),
especially if one of them is "teeldriftig" (horny?)" and "horny (of cows)".
etymology unknown, maybe related to Dutch "deinen" (Frisian _dynje_ which
also has
a variant _dúnje_ again) = "slow rocking of boats" (V.). This also has a
repeating movement semantic element in it, hence the connection, suposedly..

But with dún (meaning _dune_) there are expressions like "Hy is yn 'e dunen"
(meaning he's lost his way, his bearings), which looks like a link towards
meaning dún = drunk.

My Dutch Etymological Dict says _down_ derives from Old English _ofdune_,
_adune_
meaning downhill. It says it has nothing to do with Irish dûn (fortress),
this is related (not borrowed either way) with Dutch _tuin_ (garden),
English _town_ (meaning "walled area"). English also has the word _down_ as
a noun meaning _dune_, as a relic.
The germanic origin is sought with the *dhû-no from a verbal stem *dhû-
which means
shake/stir, so hill = shaken earth (Greek: chutè gaia = grave hill) or with
a meaning
_opgestoven aarde_ (earth brought by wind), which would be related to _dier_
and Latin fumus. But an old and not a borrowed word (but in a "typical"
meaning).
The etymology of _deinen_ (and hence dynje etc) is unclear.

Henno Brandsma

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