LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.03.03 (11) [E]

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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject:  Language Varieties

Michael,

You are right to expand on what I said, and of course
completely correct in all you say.

The Ulster Scots Language Society itself of course
*encourages* membership of the Scots Language Society.
So there is no dispute about the position of the
*Society*, namely that Ulster Scots is a variety of
Scots.

However, I have been 'corrected' at more general
meetings (not specifically of the Society) for
referring to 'Scots' ('We're not dealing with Scots,
we're dealing with *Ulster Scots*' as I was told at
one meeting).

I have no difficulty (though I know some do) with
constant reference to 'Ulster Scots' - a bit like
Dutch speakers in Belgium would refer (at least
formally) to 'Flemish'.

However, there are two points: one is that *some*
people (albeit a minority) promote the idea that
'Ulster Scots' is a language in its own right. The
other is that there is a PR issue here - people in
Northern Ireland still have this idea that 'Ulster
Scots' (and indeed the whole idea of a
language/dialect debate) is exclusive to Northern
Ireland (as one local interviewer put it - 'Did you
speak Ulster Scots back in Scotland?')

Kind regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.ianjamesparsley.net
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at btinternet.com>
Subject:  LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.03.03 (03) [E]

At 18:33 03/03/03, Michael Montgomery <N270053 at VM.SC.EDU> wrote:
>Now it is true that members of the Language Society sometimes refer
>to Ulster Scots as a "language," but usually this is as a
>rhetorical device to contrast with either Irish or English.  That
>is to say that in Northern Ireland one frequently finds it stated
>(especially in the media) that English and Irish are "languages,"
>while Ulster Scots is "only a dialect."  In reaction Ulster Scots
>is claimed to be a "language" to give it respect, not necessarily
>to assert its linguistic autonomy.  (I suspect this same dynamic --
>to counter the dismissive prejudice so often conveyed by usage of
>the term "dialect" -- is partly responsible for Lowland Scots being
>characterized as a "language").

I wouldn't really disagree with the overall drift of the posting in
which this appeared, but this particular paragraph prompts me to ask
a question.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the people to concerned here to say
that they speak *Scots*, rather than saying that they speak Ulster Scots
and then, for the sake of dignity, having to assert (fairly untenably) that
this should be categorised as a language?

As an aside in response to the last sentence above, it's seldom
asserted that specifically *Lowland* Scots is a language - a more usual
assertion is that Scots, be it of the Lowlands, North-East, Caithness,
Southern Uplands, Ulster, etc, is a language and that these regional
forms are its different dialects.

Wi guidwull tae awbodie,

Colin Wilson.

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