LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (02) [E]

Tue Mar 4 15:27:49 UTC 2003

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.03 (05) [E]

> From: Global Moose Translations
> <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.02 (01) [E]

> I strongly assume that the use of "me" as a subject
> has to do with Norman influences in Britain. The
French would never answer
> "Who's there" with
> "Je!", after all, it's always "moi" (even Miss Piggy
> knows that). Also, "ma
> femme et je" for "my wife and me" is an absolute
> no-no.

> Gabriele Kahn
>
--------------------------
In olden times the French would not response with
'Je'; A personal pronoun as subject was unknown in the
old French times. They introduced this phenomenon due
to Franconian influence.
I assume that the construction 'my wife and me' is
older than the habit of the 'proper use' of
subject-pronouns.
Besides: ''My wife and I...' is more difficult for the
hearer; it is something like feeling that the sentence
is starting with 'I' .

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Grammar

When going through some old documents, I found a strange thing.

I got a mba degree in Antwerp in 1981, and on the certificate I read:
".. has this day been admitted to the degree of Master of Business
Administration".

Since the school was associated with the Kellogg Graduate School we got a
complementary certification by the Dean of the Northwestern (Donald Jacobs
at the time).
On this document I read:
"... with a degree of Master_s_ of Business Administration".

Is that _s_  suffix a typing error, or some kind of genitive?

Thanks for all clarification.

Regards,

Roger

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From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.03 (10) [E]

Hi, Cornelius,

You wrote:

> From: corber <corber at shaw.ca>
> Subject:  LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.03 (01) [E]
>
> Hi !
>  In old saxen(Plaut-dietsch) we say " lie dee dole" =lay you down.
>  Cornelius  Bergen

(LS below)
How do You pronounce Your "lie"? Like the (E) "lie" (UG) "Lüge" or like (E)
"Lee (Marvin)"?

We use to say (LS) "Lech [-gg] Dii dooal", the "Dii" like Your obvious
English "dee" and "dole".
One of the minimized situations where hearing is easier than reading a
saxon-dialect.

Best regards:

Fiete.

Woans snackt Jii dat "lie" uut? Opp de Ingelte Oort "lie", or "Lee[Marvin]"?

Wii seggt in LS: "Lech (-gg) Dii dooal", "Dii" like (E) "J. Dea[n]" un'
"dooal" as 'n Banaan.

Opp disse Oord is dat Höörn lichter ass dat Schrieverei von'n sassisch'
Dialekt, mann- oohn Küll von't Ingelte schall't woll ne goohn!

Greutens

Fiete.

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.03 (05) [E]

At 10:36 AM 03/03/03 -0800, Gabriele Kahn wrote:
>But I still agree with CriÃ³stoir: in spoken English, "me and my dog"
instead
>of "my canine companion and I" sounds a lot more "natural". Also, have you
>ever asked a crowd of children, "Who wants ice cream?", and did a single
one
>of them yell "Iiiiiiiii"???

Of course this is going to seem natural in some contexts.  Actually, around
here, you'd be more likely to hear, "I do, I do!" than the other.   This is
the whole point:  "in spoken English".  Please do not assume that everyone
speaks the same way everywhere.

>I strongly assume that the use of "me" as a subject has to do with Norman
>influences in Britain. The French would never answer "Who's there" with
>"Je!", after all, it's always "moi" (even Miss Piggy knows that). Also, "ma
>femme et je" for "my wife and me" is an absolute no-no.

I'm still waiting for other, more learned persons to weigh in on
this.  Does this usage occur in Old English, or does it only first appear
after 1066?

>And, as a final point in case, here's the first verse of "Goodnight,
Irene":
>
>"Last Saturday night I got married,
>Me and my wife settled down.
>Now me and my wife are parted,
>I'm gonna take another stroll in town."
>
>Try and sing that using "my wife and I". Sounds horrible, doesn't it? :-)

Of course it would sound wrong.  But just look at the social level of this
song.  This use of the objective pronoun is exactly what would be expected
from the audience of this folksy ditty.

Ed Alexander

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2003.03.03 (01) [E]

At 10:25 AM 03/03/03 -0800, Alannah Stepa wrote:
>I have read a couple of your previous postings and my thoughts  and I am
>assuming that you are a Canadian, not an immigrent.

Actually, I was born in raised in an upper class home north of Chicago,
Illinois, where I lived for 18 years.  We only spoke General American, but
one heard something a bit different spoken by other people, particularly in
shops or by tradespeople.

>Canada is a very
>"classless" society when compared to more established cultures. It seem to
>me that many English people I encounter have moved here because it is a way
>to escape a system that they do not belong in. They are middle class by
>education from working class backgrounds and they bring a good education
and
>a more formal usage of the language with them.
>Add to this the large number of Europeans who moved here during the past
>millinium, "Canadian" has become a mixture of the languages which in some
>languges do not translate "my wife and I" "my wife and myself" or "me and
my
>wife" in the same way. Thus the use of the different sentence structures is
>not a matter of "correct" but more of how the native language was
translated
>into English and used at home.
>I think you would agree with me, hey?

Not at all.  My friend Gord is probably third or fourth generation
Canadian, and the way he speaks is typical of people in his social echelon,
regardless of when their family originally immigrated.  Their speech habits
are pretty flawlessly imitated by those more recent immigrants, be they of
English, Italian, Romanian, or other derivation.  There is absolutely no
doubt in my mind that his pronoun usage goes back to a time before his
English ancestors immigrated here.  However, the same immigrants will use
the "proper" pronoun application if they are in a situation where people
use it as a matter of practice, as does our good friend Bich Lien from
Vietnam who works in a medical laboratory.  Her brother Thai struggles with
this, since he works as an electrician in a local factory, where most
people use the other.  It's interesting to hear him make sure he uses the
"right" one when speaking with my wife.

Howzitgoin, eh?

Ed Alexander

----------

From: Allison Turner-hansen <athansen at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.03 (05) [E]

On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Lowlands-L wrote:

> So Shakespeare wasn't above using grammatically correct English - good for
> him!
>
> But I still agree with Crióstoir: in spoken English, "me and my dog"
instead
> of "my canine companion and I" sounds a lot more "natural". Also, have you
> ever asked a crowd of children, "Who wants ice cream?", and did a single
one
> of them yell "Iiiiiiiii"???
>
> I strongly assume that the use of "me" as a subject has to do with Norman
> influences in Britain. The French would never answer "Who's there" with
> "Je!", after all, it's always "moi" (even Miss Piggy knows that). Also,
"ma
> femme et je" for "my wife and me" is an absolute no-no.
>
> And, as a final point in case, here's the first verse of "Goodnight,
Irene":
>
> "Last Saturday night I got married,
> Me and my wife settled down.
> Now me and my wife are parted,
> I'm gonna take another stroll in town."
>
> Try and sing that using "my wife and I". Sounds horrible, doesn't it? :-)
>
> Gabriele Kahn

Another song comes to my mind, Gabriele- "Me and My Shadow".

Allison Turner-Hansen

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