LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.05 (01) [E]

Wed Mar 5 15:24:34 UTC 2003

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (09) [D/E/German]

> From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (07) [E/German]
>
> At 12:08 PM 03/04/03 -0800, Gabriele wrote:
>
>   Thanks a lot, Ed. I am as "learned" as they come,
> but I also have a sense
> of
>   humour.[deleted]

>   From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
>   Subject: Grammar
>   I've just had a quick look through an Old and
> Middle
>   English reader and couldn't find any examples of
> 'me'
>   being used in the subject position when in
> combination
>   with another pronoun. Also from Sandy's examples
> from
>   Shakespeare there didn't seem to be any
> occurances.[deleted]

> Ed Alexander
>
>
> From: CrÃostÃ³ir Ã" Ciardha
> <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Grammar
> Gary wrote/schreeven:
> "I've just had a quick look through an Old and
> Middle
> English reader and couldn't find any examples of
> 'me'
> being used in the subject position when in
> combination
> with another pronoun. Also from Sandy's examples
> from
> Shakespeare there didn't seem to be any occurances.
[deleted]
> Go raibh maith agaibh/dankje
>
> CriostÃ³ir.

-------------------
You all learned people,

A [modest and important] question:

would you say 'he and me' or 'him and me'?
{I guess that /he and I/ and /him and I/ are out of
question.}

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

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From: luc.hellinckx at pandora.be <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Grammar

Beste liëglanners,

Just a word or two about the I/me situation in Lowlands languages. First I'd
like to point out that in Brabantish we usually duplicate personal pronouns
according to the following pattern :

I (E) ~ ich (G) ~ 'k + ik (B) : e.g. Gojn(e) 'k ik da mogen doen ? (B) >< Ga
ik dat mogen doen ? (D)

you (E) ~ du (G) ~ ge + gaa (B) : e.g. Ge ze(t) gaa groeët genoeg veu dat
alliën te koejnn. (B) >< Je bent groot genoeg om dat alleen te kunnen. (D)

he/she (E) ~ er/sie (G) ~ en/ze + ij/zij : e.g. 't Es 't ope dat 'n ij da ni
mut doen in eul plek. (B) >< Het is te hopen dat hij dat niet moet doen in
haar plek. (= literally translated)

we (E) ~ wir (G) ~ me + waëln (B) : e.g. Me zen waëln da grat vergeetn. (B)
>< We zijn dat helemaal vergeten. (D). Note the position of the subject
"waëln" after the auxiliary "zen"!

you (E) ~ ihr (G) ~ ge + gaaln (B)

they (E) ~ sie (G) ~ ze + zijln (B)

Is there any other language in Europe where pronouns also usually occur in
pairs ? I know of no similar phrases in Romance languages, but maybe
somebody else could shed some light on the Celtic or the Slavic situation ?

Slightly related to this, is the different usage of I >< me (E), ik >< mij
(D) in West Flemish (V)
e.g. Het is van mij (D) ~ It's mine (E) ~ 't Es van maa (B) ~ 't Es van ik
(V)
I'm absolutely not fluent in West Flemish myself, so please guys correct me
if I'm wrong. I do happen to know though that West Flemish has a lot of
cases where everybody in Belgium would use the word "mij", whereas they
would use "ik". English on the other hand is also exceptional in a sense
that, as far as I know, in every other Lowlands language, the sentence "It's
me!" would be rougly translated as "It is I"
e.g. Ik ben het (D) ~ 't Zen(e) 'k ik (B) ~ Ich bin es (G)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (09) [D/E/German]

Sorry it took me three tries to get this right. I think I need more sleep...

Ed wrote in reply to me:

>   Thanks a lot, Ed. I am as "learned" as they come, but I also have a
sense
> of
>   humour.
>
> I knew that would come out wrong.  I mean more specifically, other more
> learned types like yourself, not others more learned than yourself.

Well, I realized as soon as I sent my reply that you couldn't have possibly
meant it that way, since I'm the one who pointed out to you that there is a
difference between a wolf and a coyote, thereby proving my serious
scientific background! ;-)

Gabriele Kahn

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (09) [D/E/German]

> From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Grammar
> Gary wrote/schreeven:
> "I've just had a quick look through an Old and Middle
> English reader and couldn't find any examples of 'me'
> being used in the subject position when in combination
> with another pronoun. Also from Sandy's examples from
> Shakespeare there didn't seem to be any occurances.
>
> "Ich habe gerade durch ein Lesebuch fÃ¼r Alt- und
> Mittelenglische Literatur geblÃ¤ttert und kÃ¶nnte keinen
> Beispiele von 'me' als Subjekt finden."
>
> What about the Dutch-Zeelandic influence on Nottingham English, where
> we
> have _mi waaif en mie_ (my wife and me)? Dutch-Zeelandic seems to have
> had
> (at least) a superstratic influence on Nottingham English.
> Constructions
> that don't agree with Shakespeare might originate there.
>
> Now in a very poor attempt at Dutch (only 'learnt' this Christmas so
> go easy
> on me):
> Nu ik schreev in een klein bietje van Nederlands ('Kerstnederlands',
> ik ben
> sorry):
>
> Wat van die Nederlands-Zeeuws invloed op Nottingham Engels, waar daar
> is _mi
> waaif en mie_ (mijn vrouwin en mee)? Nederlands-Zeeuws hebben een
> 'superstratic' invloed op Nottingham Engels ik denk - zie N. Engels
> _sen_ en
> Zeeuws _selven_ (spreekt _sen_). Engels woordformen dat ga gegen
> Shakespeare
> mag kom van dat.
>
> Go raibh maith agaibh/dankje
>
> Criostóir.

Zeeuws of West-Vlaams liggen in dezelfde taalgroep.
In het V zeggen we:

Ik en min wuf/ min wuf en ekik/ ik en min vrouwe/ Min vrouwe en ekik
(wuf is concidered very "low standard")
Ik en min vroemins/ Min vroemins en ekik/
I don't hear the constructions "min wuf (vrouwe) en mie/mie en min
wuf(vrouwe)"

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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