LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.03 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 03.May.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From:  Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.02 (06) [E]

4:22 2-5-2003 -0700, Lowlands-L:
Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>:
>Also, re Arabic "j", in Levantine Arabic it is, I'm
>pretty sure, pronounced "zh" like the "s" in
>"measure", whereas "j" is Standard and "g" is
>Egyptian.

I can confirm that, from the little I know about Arabic. The
original, [dj]-like pronunciation of the Arabic leter ji:m exists
only in the learned Classical Arabic, which of course is still in
everyday use as a lingua franca and as the language of islam, and as
such has a high status. Now as MSA, Modern Standard Arabic. But in
spite of that it is in fact not a natural language, hardly anybody's
native tongue, it's a language learned by some in school.

Perhaps in Saudi-Arabia, Yemen, and in Iraq, some colloquial
dialects still have this sound too. I do not know the exact details.
Everywhere else (Magrib, Libanon, etc.) it's zh as in French Jean,
English espionage, with the notable exception of Egypt, where this
letter now sounds as g as in French and English "grand", as Stan
correctly stated.
--
Ruud Harmsen  http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm  23 april 2003

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From:  Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.02 (04) [E]

9:21 2-5-2003 -0700, Lowlands-L:
>The first time I noticed it -- quite a few years ago -- was in the
>Mandarin name _Beijing_ (for what used to be called "Peking"),
which has
>come to be pronounced "bay-zhing"

Some remotely related links:
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/pinyin.htm
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/srebrenc.htm

In the bottom of this site
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/pinyin1.html
you'll find a sound file, with the actual sounds of Chinese as
transcribed on that page. To me that makes clear that although
PinYin is very logical, clear and symmetrical, the phonetic reality
of the Chinese language (or should I say languageS? I probably
should) is a little more complicated than that.

But of course that is true of any language, once you take a closer
look (or hear, rather).
--
Ruud Harmsen  http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm  23 april 2003

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From:  "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.02 (04) [E]

>I have noticed a certain phonological phenomenon but am not sure if it
>has been widely recognized, analyzed and labeled.  I wonder what one
>should call it.  Perhaps it falls into the broader category of
>overcompensation.  If no one has named it so far, I will refer to it as
>"exoticization."
>
>At first I thought it was a temporary quirky thing among Americans who
>want to come across as linguistically more savvy than they are,
>noticeable particularly among radio and television reporters.  However,
>to my private dismay, lately I have been noticing the same phenomenon
>among Canadian, British and Australian media people and politicians.
>
>Specifically, this is a tendency, if not a rule, to pronounce what
>should be [dZ] (as in English "jar" or "jeep") as [Z] (as in English
>'measure' or 'azure' and as in French _jour_ or _gitan_) in foreign
>words and names, excluding "important" languages such as Spanish,
>Italian and German.  This applies mostly to languages considered
>"exotic" by Westerners.

The rule is something like "when in doubt, pronounce foreign words as if
they were French." There is sometimes a further "hyper-Frenchification"
in
recognizably French items such as "coup de grace" = "coo de grah",
"concierge" = "con-see-air" (since all final consonant sounds are
imagined
to be elided in French), also last-syllable stress to imitate 'French'.
I
think this is an (ill-advised?) exaggeration of (typically American?)
effort to follow the native pronunciation, to show one's cosmopolitan
nature and/or to show respect for the foreign language (compare US
"kee-ho-tay" vs. UK "quick-set" or so for "[Don] Quixote"). Nowadays I
suppose the same motivations impel UK-ans and others as well as US-ans
to
reach beyond their linguistic limits.

I suppose there is a technical name for this but I don't know it.

-- Doug Wilson

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