LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.07 (03) [E]

Wed May 7 16:00:35 UTC 2003

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From: Andy Howey <andyandmae_howey at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.06 (01) [E]

Hi, Ron:

It's possible that I misunderstood what he said about "Peking", but I am
sure about what he said about the current
pronunciation, and that he said that he is a native of the city, and
that his parents still live there.  He's not at work today,
so I wasn't able to double-check what I thought he told me about
"Peking".

Andy Howey

Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

       //snip//
       ----------

       From: R. F. Hahn
       Subject: Phonology

       Andy (above):

       I have a co-worker who is a native of Beijing, and I asked him
how it is
       really pronounced, and he pronounced it "bay-JING", but he said
that
       that pronunciation is only since the Communists took power. Prior
to
       that, it was pronounced "pay-KING". He didn't say why the change
in
       pronunciation, though.

       This is very peculiar information, to put it politely. Are you
       absolutely sure this person is from Beijing? In the vast majority
of
       Mandarin dialects, including those of Beijing, the shift /g/
([k]) >
       /dz/ ([ts]) (and /k/ ([kh]) > /ts/ ([tsh]) before /i/ took place
       centuries ago. In Early Middle Mandarin, the name appears to have
been
       pronounced something like [pak-kIN], then [pa?-kjIN] and finally
       [pEI-tsIN], phonemically /bei-jiN/ (/b/ is realized as [p], /p/
       aspirated as [p_h]), meaning "N! orthern Capital". In Southern
Chinese
       languages the old pronunciation is more or less intact, e.g.,
Cantonese
       /bak-kIN/ (with an unreleased /k/), and there may be a few
Southern
       Mandarin dialects left that say something like [pa?-kjIN]
/ba?-kiN/.

       Irrespective of weird Taiwanese-originated stories, "The
Communists" did
       not change the name of the city. The Republican Government
(1912-1949)
       changed it to "Beiping" ("Northern Peace") and took this name
into exile
       to Taiwan (spelling it "Peip'ing" for Westerners because they
rejected
       the Pinyin transliteration together with everything else instated
on the
       Mainland), while on the Mainland the old name (originating from
the Ming
       Dynasty [1368-1644]) was reinstated and spelled in the Pinyin
       system (which is phonemically more sound than other Romanization
       systems).

       I have lived in Beijing and in Taiwan, and I know quite a bit
about wild
       fabrications flying around. Believe me! : no one from Beijing
would say
       "pay-KING". The Western name "Pekin g" is based on an earlier
Mandarin
       pronunciation.

       Cheers!
       Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.06 (03) [E]

14:20 6-5-2003 -0700, Lowlands-L:
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:
>Yes, and -- returning to the Lowlands and thereabouts -- there are
>similar shifts in Germanic languages, such as English, Scots (to a more
>limited extent) and Frisian, also in numerous Scandinavian varieties,
>some of which still write <k> or <kj> but have developed the affricates
>farther into fricatives.

And in Turkish, and in Brazilian Portuguese, and Irish and Schots
Gaelic, Russian, and ...
--
Ruud Harmsen  http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm  23 april 2003

----------

From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Andy and Ruud!

And to bring this topic back home into the Lowlands yet again, let us
remember that, besides English, Scots and Frisian, we have a
particularly interesting case of palatalization in Mennonite Lowlands
Saxon ("Plautdietsch") and the now extinct and moribund related
varieties once spoken in what is now Northern Poland, namely in and
around the Vistula Delta.

In these varieties, velars are palatalized if they are directly adjacent
(before or after) a front vowel or separated from it by a sonorant.
Depending on the Plautdietsch dialect, /k/ changes to <kj> (first-stage
palatalization) or to <tj> (second-stage palatalization), while /g/
undergoes palatalization and fricativization to <j>.  This treatment of
/g/ is a wide-spread feature in the Lowlands Saxon and German varieties
of the eastern ranges, while /k/ palatalization seems to be confined to
areas farther east.  The distribution of both more or less coincides
with other features that are evidence of Slavic (and in some cases also
Baltic) substrates, which is consistent with historical developments.

Some may question the description "velars are palatalized if they are
directly adjacent (before or after) a front vowel or separated from it
by a sonorant."  While this is clearly the case in words such as (/ik/
->) _ekj_ ~ _etj_ 'I', (/kind/ ->) _Kjint_ ~ _Tjint_ (more accurately
spelled <Kjind> ~ <Tjind>, see below) 'child', (/kiik+@(n)/ ->)
_kji(e)kje(n)_ ~ _tji(e)tje_ 'to look', (/köül/ > keil ->) _kjeel_ ~
_tjeel_ 'cool', (/köünig/ -> keinig ->) _Kjenich_ ~ _Tjenich_ 'king',
(/klein/ ->) _kjleen_ ~ _tjleen_ 'small', (/kriig/ ->) _Kjri(e)ch_ ~
_Tjri(e)ch_ 'war', and (/köök/ > /keek/ ->) _Kjäakj_ ~ _Tjäatj_ 'kitchen',
at first sight it appears to be contradicted by examples such as
_kjane(n)_ ~ _tjane_ 'to know' and _Malkj_ ~ _Maltj_ 'milk', since <a>
is not a front vowel, and also by cases such as _klüak_ 'clever', _Krüt_
'herb', and _krüpe(n)_ 'to creep', where there appear to be front vowels
but no palatalization.

The explanation for palatalization without apparent front vowel is that
the vowels in question are underlyingly (phonemically) frontal and
undergo a subsequent backing rule; thus /e/ becomes [a] (while true
short /a/ changes to [aU], as in /plat/ -> _plaut_ 'flat',
'Plautdietsch', /kan/ -> _Kaun_ 'can'), _kjane(n)_ ~ _tjane_ being
underlyingly /ken+@(n)/, and _Malkj_ ~ _Maltj_ being underlyingly
/melk/.  As for the front vowel <ü> appearing with no palatalization,
bear in mind that it is a dialectal variant of <u>, thus _klüak_ ~
_kluak_, _Krüt_ ~ _Krut_', and _krüpe(n)_ ~ _krupe(n)_, namely that /u/
-> [ü] applies in some dialects *consequent* to the palatalization
rule.  Genuine, underlying front rounded vowels become unrounded; e.g.,
(/gröün/ -> grein ->) _jreen_ 'green', and (/füür/ -> fiir ->) _Fia_
'fire'.

In addition, Plautdietsch palatalizes /d/ to [j] after nasals, as in
(/kind+ at r/ ->) _Kjinja_ ~ _Tjinja_ 'children' (hence the more
appropriate spelling _Kjind_, as mentioned above, since /nt/ does not
change to [nj], as in _Winta_ 'winter').  This rule is fairly
wide-spread in Eastern varieties, and it may even be found in western
ones.  Generally speaking, /d/ is extremely unstable, tends to
"disappear" or assimilate in "Low German" (L. Saxon and L. Franconian);
e.g., _Lüde_ ~ _Lüüd'_ ~ _Lüe_ ~ _Lü_ ~ _lu(u)_ ~ _lue_ ~ _lui_
'people', 'folk' (Plautdietsch _Lied_), _finden_ ~ _vinden_ ~ _vind_ ~
_finnen_ ~ _vinn_ 'to find' (Plautdietsch _finje(n)_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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