LL-L "Idiomatica" 2003.11.06 (01) [E/S]

Thu Nov 6 16:06:46 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Idiomatica

CrÃostÃ³ir said:
"Does anyone know where the English Midlands term of endearment 'mi duck'
(my duck) comes from? It's only used to refer to women and is always fondly
used - no offence is intended, unlike the slightly patronising (in my
opinion) standard English equivalent 'my dear'."

I suppose my surname (Duckworth) makes me especially qualified to comment on
this!

This use of 'duck' as a term of endearment was formerly not confined to the
English Midlands, and as an alternative to 'darling' or 'dear' it dates back
to the 16th century. Other variations on the word were _ducky_ or
_ducks_._Ducky_  or  _duckie_ was also a name for the female breast, which
is now obsolete; this may come from the word _dug(s)_ for 'teats' or
_breasts_, also common up to the 16th century but which has subsequently
fallen into disuse.

I think the term of endearment comes from the name of the bird, and the term
_duck_  (Old English _duce_, with long or short _u_ ; from Germanic terms
for 'to duck' or 'to dive' [ Old Frisian _dûka_, Middle Low German / Middle
Dutch _dûken_ ( > Modern Dutch _duiken_), Old High German _tûhhan_ (> Modern
High German _tauchen_). To refer to the fairer sex using term normally used
for birds is, of course, not uncommon in world languages : in English for
instance we use the politically incorrect terms _bird_ and _chick_.

What is interesting about the MIdlands use of the the word is that you say
it is used only to women; the word _duck_  was originally used to denote the
female of the species (and was leter applied to the whole species), the male
still, of course, being called the _drake_. Perhaps the Midland dialects of
English continued to preserve this distinction.

This discussion of the phrase _mi duck_ makes me think of two other similar
idioms. One of them is very pertinent to the Lowlands theme of this list:
_my old dutch_  , which seems to be considered by lexicographers to be a
form of the second idiom, _duchess_. Both _my old dutch_ and _the duchess_
seem (to my mind) to be associated with the London area and especially the
Cockney Dialect. _Duchess_ was used to refer to any girl or woman, and often
specifically referred to the speaker's wife or mother. I am not sure,
though, that  _my old dutch_ is gender specific, I have an idea that it can
refer to males or females.

John Duckworth
Preston, Lancashire

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

In the wake of the discussion about _mi duck_, another query sprang to my
mind.

In the Scouse or Liverpudlian dialect (from Liverpool) they often use a term
of address (to males only, I think) _wak_ (or maybe this should be written
_wach_ ), pronounced [wax]. Does anyone have any idea what the origin of thi
s word is?

They use another term of address too, _la_, pronounced [la:], I presume this
just comes from the word _lad_, meaning 'boy', 'young man' ?

John Duckworth
Preston, Lancashire

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Idiomatica

Holger Weigelt wrote:
"If "duck" is used in it's basical meaning - the waterbird - and not in
a different meaning of a special subculture which I don't know, this term
reminds me of the common term of endearment "tüüt" "tüütje"
(chicken, little chicken) (mīn tüüt) - sometimes germanized, sounding
"tüüdī" - or "tüütāj" (hen's egg) used toward girls or women in Eastern
Friesland Low Saxon.

This reminds me of the word _chuck_ which is used as a term of endearment,
and a common form of address in Liverpool, and must be an old word for
'chicken'.. I have heard it from non-Scousers though, as far away as
Manchester. In Preston we used to tell children to eat their _chucky eggs_,
i.e. their hen's eggs, and in Australia of course _chuck_ is a common word
for 'chicken.' At one time this word must have been more widesperead in the
North of England (in the meaning 'chicken' and as a term of endearment), and
Emile Brontë actually uses it in one of her books. In Liverpool I think it
fair to say that _chuck_ would be used by a woman to a man or woman, or (to
a lesser extent though) by a man to a woman.
Other terms of address commonly used in the North of England are _luv_ that
is certainly used (by women to male/female, or by male to female) throughout
Lancashire and encroaching into Liverpool. (I imagine it is used in
Yorkshire too but can't remember for certain; I have heard it on the
Yorkshire-based soap-opera Emmerdale however.) And in the
Newcastle-upon-Tyne area (the Geordie dialect area) the word _pet_ is
commonly used, and, although I am open to correction, I would say that _pet_
is used by men to men and women as well as by women to both genders. Indeed
the phrase that is considered throughout England to typify the Geordie
dialect is _way-aye pet!_, which means something like 'Certainly, dear!'

Many years ago a young German teacher was visiting me in Preston and I took
her to a tobacconist shop to buy a pipe for her father. The woman serving
was very helpful but insisted on ending every sentence with the word _luv_.
The pipe was duly purchased, but when the German lady left the shop she was
most indignant, raving about the fact that she did not appreciate being
referred to as 'love' by other women, and eapecially by women she did not
know at all.

John Duckworth

Preston, UK.

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.11.05 (08) [E]

Thanks, Holger.

No trickery involved: 'duck' is simply that. I think
some northern English variants (as well as Scots,
although I am too ill-informed to comment on it) use
'hen' as we in the Midlands use 'duck'. There must be
some kind of common Lowlandic element in referring to
people, affectionately, as fowl.

Why 'duck' in some areas, but 'hen' in another?
Nottingham and Derbyshire are no more inundated with
ducks than they are hens (or chickens or geese for
that matter).

Criostóir.

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From: Jenny Kool <j.kool at reginacoeli.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.11.05 (04) [E]

> From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2003.11.05 (03) [E]
>
> A chairde,
>
> Does anyone know where the English Midlands term of
> endearment 'mi duck' (my duck) comes from? It's only
> used to refer to women and is always fondly used - no
> offence is intended, unlike the slightly patronising
> (in my opinion) standard English equivalent 'my dear'.
> Nowadays 'mi duck' seems confined to the older age
> group (even though I use it myself).
>
> Do any other Lowland languages use their form of
> 'duck' in this way? I've only ever encountered it in
> the English Midlands and have copped scowls almost
> every time I use it (without thinking) outside the
> area.

During my years at the university, I remember male students talking about
women referring to women as 'kipje'.
In my opinion they used that word mainly for good looking female students,
with whom they wanted to have sex (or had had sex). It felt very belittling
and this term always gave me a very nasty taste in my mouth. I do not know
of any equivalent female students used for male students.

Jenny Huijben-Kool

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Idiomatica

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Semantics
Sandy said:

"For example, when I was in Scotland earlier this year I asked my father
where a certain neighbour was as I hadn't seen her around. He answered
simply, "She's awa."
We might also say things like "he's passed ower" or "she coudna bide".

In Lancashire there used to be an expression (that I haven't heard since the
sixties) _She's cocked her tooas up_ or in even broader dialect _(h)oo's
cocked her tooas up_. In other words, of course, 'She has cocked her
toesup'. ( _hoo_,with the _h_ silent, is an old Lancashire pronoun meaning
'she', that I also haven't heard for many years.)

Hello Sandy, John
In Australia we say "she has kicked the bucket!!" or " he has carked it" or
"she has bought a farm"
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From: James Fortune <jamesrfortune at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.11.05 (08) [E/S]

And Holger, ye wrote:
>...this term reminds me of the common term of endearment "tüüt"
>"tüütje" (chicken, little chicken) (mīn >tüüt) - sometimes germanized,
>sounding "tüüdī" - or "tüütāj" (hen's egg) used toward girls or women
>in >Eastern Friesland Low Saxon.

Back hame, Ah'd caw ma Maither "Hen", gin Ah wanted tae uise a mair
affectionate term than juist "Mum". Mebbies it's a juist wee bit patronisin
;-). Ah wunder gin there's onieother similar terms in other Lallans
langages?

James Fortune.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Idiomatica

Well, well, doesn't this subject line prove to be popular?  And it has
problems deciding if it's "Idiomatica" or "Etymology" ...

John, you wrote above in one of your interesting explanations:

> I think the term of endearment comes from the name of the bird, and the
term _duck_  (Old
>  English _duce_, with long or short _u_ ; from Germanic terms for 'to
duck' or 'to dive' [ Old
> Frisian _dûka_, Middle Low German / Middle Dutch _dûken_ ( > Modern Dutch
_duiken_),
>  Old High German _tûhhan_ (> Modern High German _tauchen_).

Just for the sake of "completeness," let me add Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) _duken_ (/duuk-/ [du:kN]) 'to duck', 'to dive' (but not 'to dive' in
the sense of jumping into water).  In Missingsch, in other Northern German
dialects and I believe now also in southern German dialects now, _duken_ as
a loanword is used in the sense of 'to duck', while the German cognate
_tauchen_ is used to denote 'to dive' (but again not in the sense of jumping
into water).

Jennie:

> During my years at the university, I remember male students talking about
women
> referring to women as 'kipje'.

For those that do not know, _kipje_ is the diminutive form of Dutch _kip_
'hen'.

> Back hame, Ah'd caw ma Maither "Hen", gin Ah wanted tae uise a mair
> affectionate term than juist "Mum". Mebbies it's a juist wee bit
patronisin
> ;-). Ah wunder gin there's onieother similar terms in other Lallans
> langages?

We bairns wadna caw wir maither _Henn(e)_ 'hen', tho we'd aften caw her an
be cawd bi her _Hase_ 'boutie', 'donie', 'maukin', in a fain tift, bit
that's likelie speceefic tae wir byordinar faimlie wi eastlin ruits.
Housomaiver, we'd whiles say aboot an tae her that she's a hen or guided
hersel like ane, she an ither maithers that guide thaimsels
ower-pertective-like.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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