LL-L "History" 2003.11.19 (04) [E]

Wed Nov 19 20:16:04 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2003.11.19 (03) [E]

  From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu.vanwoerkom at student.kun.nl>
  Subject: History

  Ron wrote:

    For those of you who do not read Dutch let me just summarize that
    archeological finds in Zele near Dendermonde reportedly prove
3rd-century
    Frisian presence in Eastern Flanders, giving rise to the hypothesis that
    groups of Frisians escaped their wet homeland for the drier southern

  inland.

  That makes sense indeed, since some archaologists (based on other
  archeological discoveries in Friesland itself ) believe that at some
moment
  in time, the Frisians completely left their homeland Frisia for other,
drier
  places. The Flemish coast would then be a very logical place indeed.

  It is not clear if Frisia was completely abandoned (and later populated by
  other [related] tribes) or if the ones who left behind eventually mixed
with
  others.

  The only certainty we have, is that very little information is certain!

  regards,
  Mathieu

Hi,
...
And that a lot of people believe more and more the opposite history.
Frisians first lived in what is now Northern France and West-Flanders, and
then emigrated north to their actual regions.
Some examples for this theory:
-All Frisian toponimes can be found in those regions, well before (and more
than) the actual names in Friesland.
-The northern regions were floaded in those days, it was below sealevel.
-Go to Saint-Omer (France) and you still can see the dried out 'Flevum' or
'Almere'.
-Willibrord comes from oversee to Francia were the Frisians lived. That
can't possibly be the northern regions. (It is stated that he could see the
land across).
- Isn't it absurd that Frisians lived in Northern Netherland but that their
rivers were in "Germany", considering the fact that both the citynames and
the rivers still are correctly together in France?
Next yaer there will be a book for sale about this problem. I'll let you
know.

One more detail that i copied from this website:
http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/Gbm.Delahaye/
-Want toen zij over de zee scheep gingen naar Fresia, dat ligt naast de
streek van de Morini, kwam het voor dat hij het Misoffer wilde opdragen.
Bron: Vita S.Vulframni, AS, maart III. p.145.
The Morini were people who lived in (French) Flanders.

So these new findings are one more statement for that theory.
I am looking forward for big discussions in the world of historians and
archeologists.

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: History

Beste liëglanners,

Re Frisian presence in Zele, Mathieu is probably right when he writes:
> The only certainty we have, is that very little information is certain!

One thing that I do know for sure though is that I'll always remember the
region immediately north of Dendermonde because of the eye-catching looks of
a sizeable fraction of the inhabitants...I grew up 15 km south-east of
Dendermonde and when I saw these guys from across the river Schelde I was
oftentimes surprised to see features that I would never or seldom encounter
in the Pajottenland (in Brabant). Long, sleek blond hair, long thin faces
with a narrow chin, invariably tall and slender, long thin limbs, walking
very much upright, clear blue/grey eyes and having a very fair complexion.

I don't know whether this is due to a Frisian or Saxon substrate, but there
must be some reason as the difference is quite striking in my opinion. On
the other hand, it's said that the Frisians probably received their name
because of their frizz(l)ing hair, so maybe Saxon influence is more likely.
Curly blond/white hair is something that I'd rather associate with the
countryside north of Ghent.

Maybe archeology can sort this out...if ever there were substantial cultural
differences between Frisians and Saxons. Linguistically, the situation is
fuzzier I think because coastal germanic relics are relatively few and far
between...but geographically they are scattered over quite a distance (as
far as Antwerp in the east for example).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: History

Thanks to our two Luc's (above).

So, this interesting information begs the perhaps naive question if these
southern immigrants then just took on the name "Frys" (etc.) before or after
their migration.  If it was after their arrival at the coast, might they
have inherited the name from (perhaps non-Germanic) people that lived there
already (the "Frisoi" of Greek reports)?  By "inherited the name" I mean a
situation like those of the Saxon speakers that migrated eastward, settled
in predominantly Slavonic-speaking Pomerania (assumedly mixing with the
Slavonic speakers to various degrees) and then became "Pomeranians"
(_Pommern_).

Luc Hellinckx:

> Maybe archeology can sort this out...if ever there were substantial
cultural differences
> between Frisians and Saxons.

How about DNA research then?  Has any specific DNA genealogical research
been done in the area?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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