LL-L "Etymology" 2003.11.20 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 20.NOV.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron (quoting) wrote:

"Mokum betekent stad. Oorspronkelijk werd Amsterdam door hen aangeduid met
Mokum Alef, Rotterdam met Mokum Reis, Berlijn met Mokum Beth, steeds de
beginletter van de naam van de stad. Alleen Amsterdam heeft zijn jiddische
naam behouden, en is synoniem geworden met de gezellige binnenstad."

This is very interesting, though I don't think you are right when you
suggest that _Mokum Alef_ denoted the most important town and _Mokum Beth_
the second most important, etymologically speaking they would have been
styled thus, as the writer says "Steeds de beginletter van de naam van de
stad" (According to the initial letter of the City's name).

Is it possible that Hadewych Martens is just trying to Hebraicize the letter
names, and that he is not transcribing Yiddish pronunciations at all?

Going off at a tangent somewhat from the original discussion _Mokum_ is the
name for the city of Amsterdam in BARGOENS. I have often come across
references to Bargoens and have flicked through vocabularies of Bargoens but
I still fail to understand what exactly it is. It is often described as
"dieventaal" (a thieves' language or cant). The Van Dale dictionary glosses
it as a "Geheimtaal van onderweldfiguren" (Secret language of figures from
the underworld). Is Bargoens actually still spoken, or has it died out?
Other sources seem to suggest that it is more or less the same as the native
Amsterdammer dialect, surely this idea is incorrect?

Interestingly enough, in connection with the above discussion, there is a
Bargoens word _beis_ that means "two" or "the letter w", this is obviously
the same as the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Finally, does anyone know the origin of the name _Bargoens_ ?

John Duckworth
Preston, UK.


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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Ta, John!

Boy!  Of course, you're right about initial letters rather than ranking!  I
should have noticed it by the time I figured out the Rotterdam thing.  Duh!

I suppose then that Bargoens is the Dutch equivalent of Rotwelsch.  There
are a few neat sites:

Bargoens: http://www.bargoens.com/
Woordenlijst Jiddisch en Bargoens en plat Amsterdams:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/edusoft/waterloo/woorden.html
http://home.planet.nl/~smets039/amsterdams.html
Winschoter Bagoens: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ghdesign/jiddisch/bargoens.html

<quote>
Het woord ‘Bargoens’ is waarschijnlijk een verbastering van Bourgondisch en
wordt gebruikt als aanduiding van vreemde of onbegrijpelijke sterke taal of
dieventaal.
</quote>
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/bork001lett01/lexicon_003.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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