LL-L "Orthography" 2003.10.13 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 13.October.2003 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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Onderwerp: "Orthography"
Van: "Holger Weigelt" <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Datum: Za, 4 januari, 2003 5:10 am

> From: Anja Meyfarth <anja-meyfarth at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.10.08 (02) [E]
>
> Moin Lowlanders!
>
> Holger wrote:
>
> > If You had read my different postings on this matter You'd know
> > that I never
> > insisted on convincing a speaker of Dithmarschen or elsewhere outside
> > Eastern Friesland. I always highlighted the fact that my proposals
> > are based
> > in my experiences with and work about Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
> > whichin
> > some respect is different from LS of other regions possibly making my
> > orthography not interchangeable (?).
>
> I fear you will get the problem of splitteringup the dialects. I once again
> tell you that it is very hard for me to read your orthography because Im
not
> so used to the dialect you write. It is NOT in my ears. Of course speakers
> of East frisian Low Saxon don't have that problem. Splittering up the
> orthographies of the dialects even more than they are already today will
> make it impossible to sell books any longer. Low Saxon is in need of an
> orthography that can be read by speakers from the Netherlands till
> Vorpommern (and their descendants elsewhere in this world). That craves an
> orthography that is moving away from the specialities of a certain dialect.
> You see my argument? Even today authors of a certain region don't sell
their
> books in other areas. That has to be changed.
>

Hello Anja !
Of course You are right but when I started my work years ago this was in the
course of a short "renaissance" of LS in Eastern Friesland which made me
(and some others) hope that I/we could do something good for our language to
preserve it and reinforce it's use. It was a very local or regional thing
and I didn't ever since want to come out with ideas in the larger context of
Low Saxon in general. The specialities of EFLS provide enough work for me.
But there are others who do similar things for their local or regional
dialect (have a look for example on the website of K.-W. Kahl ) and if You
compare You will find many similarities and possibly with the help of some
enthusiastics all these attempts may grow together to a system we can accept
for LS in general.

> > Standardization mustn't be fixed in laws but I'm convinced it'll help
if You
> > haven't up to six different possibilities to write the same word. That is
> > what speakers of EFLS tell me the difficulty to read LS is.
>
> Well, it's getting worse with a special orthography for EFLS. Than speakers
> from Dithmarschen will refuse even more to read EFLS literature...
>

I won't refuse to write EFLS in an orthography speakers from Dithmarschen
can read also (if they understand what I wrote - an other problem with books
in regional language to be sold elsewhere) if this fits the needs of my
language as well as theirs. (See what I said above.)

> > But thats not
> > all. As long as we try to make written LS look as if it was German our
> > readers won't develop a feeling for having a language of their own
instead
> > of a kind of falsified German.
>
> That change has to be made in the heads as a principle. I don't think
that a
> change in orthography will help making that change. It is a very long
way to
> go still.

Having an orthography of their own can help people to acknowledge the idea
of having an own language and thus strenthen the process of getting the
principle into the heads.

> > A real literary language is much higher estimated and will increase in
> > prestige.
>
> First you have to get them read "real literature". And see it on stage by
> the way...
>
> > A fixed orthography is one aspect to achieve this. The other is a
system of
> > grammatical rules.
>
> There are grammatical rules. No language can be spoken without grammatical
> rules. They are already LS grammar(s), f.ex. in "Sprachführer
Plattdeutsch",
> Quickborn-Verlag, Hamburg, ISBN 3-87651-204-2.

Of course there are rules but people aren't concious of using rules
different from German ones. If You make them aware of that fact and show the
m how their orthography depends on these it will make them more conscious of
using a language of its own and on the other hand this knowledge will help
them to keep to the rules instead of constantly breaking them in favour of
German.
I don't know the book You mentioned but recently I studied the
"Niederdeutsche Grammatik" by INS, Bremen, and was disappointed because of
incompleteness and mistakes in many aspects. In some cases however I guess
it doesn't go wrong for LS in general but for EFLS in special. That shows up
an other problem: Possibly we can come to a general orthography because the
sound-system might be almost the same everywhere but there are great
differences in vocabulary and pronounciation that make reading from an other
region difficult as long as we don't create a kind of general LS above all
regional dialects for writing and there are obviously great differences in
grammatical structures and syntax which would have to be misregarded for
such a "High-LS". That in several cases (like EFLS) can result in having a
further language possibly also destroying the genuine structures in the same
way now German does.

> > Together these possibly can help to stop the actual process of
language loss
> > in the only spoken language. This process is a combination of features
like
> > replacing LS sounds by German ones (for example ~sg~~ more and more
becomes
> > German ~sch~ [S]), loss of genuine vocabulary, replacing prepositions and
> > other short structural words which differ from German by those
alternating
> > to German ones, using German syntax patterns and generally losing LS
> > thinking what means many actual LS speakers just do a kind of translation
> > from German while speaking.
>
> Quite a lot of them might do, as I am myself. Don't forget that it might be
> a foreign language to many of them.
>

To whom it is a "foreign" language it is easy to excuse but native speakers
shouldn't do so. It is - as I wrote - one aspect of language loss. Yet old
native speakers have a special kind of language-imagination that enables
them to create the language while speaking. Words and patterns are quite
vague and receive their meaning and distinctness from context and speaking
manner while younger speakers need fixed meanings and loose this fancy of
language creation which enriches the language and gives it a special charm.

> > About the interference of writing and speaking there already has been
said
> > enough in recent postings (Ron's for example). If we have defined
rules of
> > grammar it will be possible also to relearn how to make LS sentences
or to
> > use genuine vocabulary and confirm speakers to stay in their language
> > instead of moving to German patterns.
>
> Well, the lack of a real big dictionary is sharply hurting me. As I wrote
> some time ago, I'm working with three dictionaries in the least, sometimes
> referring to other dialects as the one I've learned to get away from words
> sounding to much German.
>
> > Of course You are right - Kiel is so far away from Eastern Friesland that
> > nobody there might ever speak LS correctly - why do You think me to
write my
> > reply in English ? :))
>
> Because of all the poor guys in this list that are not speaking LS and
might
> find it hard to read it. *verybiggrinfromeartoear*
>

*verybiggrinfromeartoear*

> > Back to start: I did my proposal for EFLS only. This variant of LS was
and
> > is written in an odd German based orthography which doesn't fit
neither it's
> > phonology nor it's grammatical structures. Nevertheless it is told to be
> > based on the so called Brookmer Platt (the local variant of the
Brookmerland
> > in the Aurich-area).
>
> And again: Don't split up the dialects of LS more than they already are! It
> will kill the language by dividing it. IMHO.

Yes, dividing kills the language and unsplitting kills the languages. How do
You think us to come out of this dilemma?
If we keep to our local language/s rising their reputation in the minds of
the people by making them aware of having an own language in its own rights
independant from German but belonging to a larger community (even larger
than LS) and keep in contact with all the other LS areas will help a lot
already. The rest must grow by time. I think we can't really guide the
developement which follows own laws.

Greetings
Holger

---------------------------

Onderwerp: "Orthography"
Van: anja-meyfarth at t-online.de (Anja Meyfarth)
Datum: Zo, 12 oktober, 2003 10:41 am

Moin Lowlanders!

Holger wrote:

> Yes, dividing kills the language and unsplitting kills the languages.
> How do You think us to come out of this dilemma? (...) The rest must
grow by
> time.

Well, in this we unite. Let's work together, right now, you and me. (Was it
the Beatles or another band that wrote tis line?)
Do you have an idea how to get people to read a literature different from
most of the books that are sold today?

Greetings from Kiel,

Anja

-----------------------------

From: Dan Ryan-Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography"

Dear all,

Why does it have to be one or the other. Holger said "deviding kills the
language and unsplitting kills the language". I'm not proposing a
standard Platt in the sense of having a written, and spoken standard
language that eventually will replace the dialects - but rather a
standardised "Ausgleichsplatt" that compromises between the regions for
wider usage
And gets more regional in vocabulary and expression the more regional is
actual use is.

If LS speakers know one standard orthography they will ultimately find
that reading literature from other regions is easy after. Where the
spoken word is concerned, I would want to see everyone use his or her
own dialect. If speakers from different regions meet they usually
compromise.

Just think of programmes like 'Talk op Platt'. As LS is the 'official'
medium people feel pressured into keeping to Platt where in the
'outside' world they'd probably end up speaking Standard German to
eachother - and look what happens - they seem to have little if any
difficulty in understanding eachother. With a bit of "Ausgleich"
(levelling) done on a spontaneous basis and the necessary goodwill,
comprehension is rarely a problem within the LS language area. It's
about suppressing the socially indoctrinated urge to switch to Standard
German. In a 'Platt official' enveironment such as 'Talk op Platt' this
seems possible - so why shouldn't one campain for a similar usage
outside a television studio.

Dan

PS: Reinhard, I'm actually considering, as you know, switching to your
Neo-Hanseatic orthography. One minor proposal, I dont know if you like
it: I would spell NHG "mit" as LS <mid> for etymological reasons.
Auslautverhärtung-rules ensures its pronunciation as /t/ anyway.

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