LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.21 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2003 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I am curious to know if French _havresac_ and English "haversack" go back to
a loan from Dutch/Flemish or from Lowlands Saxon (Low German).

Dutch:
_haverzak_: zak die, met haver gevuld, om de kop van een paard wordt
gehangen om het eruit te laten eten [van Dale] (bag containing feed hung
from a horse's head)

LS:
_haver-sak_ ~ _haber-sak_ (<Haversack> ~ <Habersack> ['hQv3`zak] ~
['hQb3`zak]): bag for holding oats; bag containing feed hung from a horse's
head; haversack (i.e., a small, stout bag carried on the back or over the
shoulder, used especially by soldiers and walkers)

English "haversack" is commonly said to be derived from French _havresac_,
which is said to be derived from "obsolete" German _Habersack_.  I take
particularly this last bit with a grain of salt.  I am sure there are still
German dialects that have _Habersack_ (Standard German _Hafersack_ "oats
bag").  Furthermore, if it were a German loan I would expect a _b_ in the
French and English versions.  Dutch and LS have a _v_ here

Thanks for any help.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:

A "lovely" little old-time LS dance song (from the Lower Elbe region, I
believe -- with "traditional" spelling):



   Wenn hier en Pott mit Bohnen steiht

   Un dor en Pott mit Brie,
   Denn laat ik Brie un Bohnen stahn
   Un danz mit mien Marie.

   Un wenn Marie nich danzen will,
   Denn hett se scheeve Been.
   Denn treck ik ehr en Paltrock an,
   Denn is dat nich to sehn.

   Un wenn se noch nich danzen will,
   Denn weet ik wat ik do.
   Denn steck ik ehr in Habersack
   Un binn' em baben to.

   Un wenn se denn noch beden deiht:
   "Och, leeve Mann, mak op!"
   Denn binn' ik em noch faster to
   Un sett mi baben rop.



Neo-Hanseatic spelling:



   Wen hyr 'n pot mit bounen stayt

   Un daar 'n pot mit bry,
   Den laat ik bry un bounen staan
   Un danss mit myn Mary.

   Un wen Mary nich danssen wil,
   Den het sey scheyve beyn'n.
   Den trek ik eer 'n paltrok an,
   Den is dat nich tou seyn.

   Un wen sey noch nich danssen wil,
   Den weet ik, wat ik dou.
   Den steek ik eer in 'n haver-sak
   Un bind em baven tou.

   Un wen sey den noch beden dayt:
   "Och, leyve man, maak op!"
   Den bind ik em noch vaster tou
   Un set my baven rop.



My translation:



   If a pot of beans were standing here
   And a pot of gruel right there,
   I'd leave gruel and beans right where they are
   And dance with my Marie.


   And should Marie not want to dance,
   She must have crooked legs.
   I'd go and put a coat on her,
   So you wouldn't likely see.

   And should she still not want to dance,
   I know what I'd do then:
   I'd stuff her in a ("haversack" =) bag for oats
   And tie it up on top.

   And should she keep on begging me,
   "Oh, husband, open up!"
   I'd tie it up still tighter then
   And sit myself on top.



Here is one tune version (not the one I am familiar with):
http://ingeb.org/Lieder/wennhier.mid,
http://www.singenundspielen.de/MidiFiles/Wenn_hier_en_Pott.mid

sheet music: http://www.singenundspielen.de/Noten/WennhierenPott.jpg


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