LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.23 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2003 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.22 (13) [E]

>Hi Ron ,
>That's what i ment when i wrote to Fréderic. In The french
>dictionnaries it is derived from the High-German word "Habersack"
>(Robert 1994 and Larousse 2001). But i do  think it  has to be a loan
>from Dutch/Flemish or LS. Most of the scolars tend to believe too often
>the french books and their explinations.
>
>groetjes
>luc vanbrabant
>oekene

Hi all,
I will do some research this week-end (in french in the text) in my french
dictionaries to attempt to explain why I'm very suspicious about them.
For example, always the words "nord, sud, est and ouest".
In accordance with french dictionaries, they come from english words.
Let compare the english, flemish and french words:

North-Noord-Nord
South, Zud, Sud
East, Oost, Est
West, West, Ouest.

Am I the only who think that "Nord" and "Sud" seem closer to flemish than
to english ? I'd be curious to know how french linguists determine from
which germanic language come some french words(I hope this sentence is
clear in english). In this case the word "havresac" seems to be a good
example too ! I think too that we must not be to confident in etymologies
in french dictionaries !

Cheers

Vrederyk Baert

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hmmm, Vrederyk/Frédéric, you may be on to something.  Also, bear in mind
that Norman (i.e., Scandinavian) and Saxon influences took place well before
French-English-Scots contacts.  (Saxons from what is now Northern Germany
harrassed the Northern French coast and then built settlements there.)
Also, remember that much or most of the coast of what are now the
Netherlands and Belgium used to be Frisian-speaking.

So, just to guild your lily:

Old English: norð, norþ (> En.,Sc. north)
Old Frisian: north, noerd (> W. noard)
Old Low Franconian: nôrth (> noord)
Old Saxon: north (> nourd)
Old German: nort, nord (> nord)
Old Norse: norð-r (> D.N. nord, S. nord~norr)

Old English: súð (> En. south, Sc. sooth)
Old Frisian: sûd (> W. súd, N. süüd)
Old Low Franconian: sûth (> zud)
Old Saxon: sûth (> süüd)
Old German: sun-t-, sun-d- (> süd)*
Old Norse: (*sun-þ-r >) suð-r (> D.N. syd, S. söder~syd-)

Old English: éastan (> En.,Sc. east)
Old Frisian: ? (> W. east)
Old Low Franconian: ôst (> oost)
Old Saxon: ôst-an(-a) (> oost)
Old German: ôst-en(-e) (> ost ~ oost)*
Old Norse: aust-an (> D.N. øst, S. öster)

Old English: west (> En. west, Sc. wast)
Old Frisian: west (> W. west, N. wêst, wâst)
Old Low Franconian: west (> west)
Old Saxon: west (> west)
Old German: west- (> west)*
Old Norse: vest-r (> D.N. vest, S. väster)

(* I did not include Yiddish data, because the corresponding words are
Hebrew loans.)

Also note that other Modern Romance languages have similar words:


Occitan: nòrd
Italian: nord
Sicilian: nord
Romanian: nord
Catalan: nord
Castilian: norte
Portuguese: norte

Occitan: sud
Italian: sud
Sicilian: sud
Romanian: sud
Catalan: (midgia)
Castilian: sur
Portuguese: sul

Occitan: aiceste
Italian: est
Sicilian: (livanti)
Romanian: est
Catalan: est
Castilian: este
Portuguese: leste

Occitan: oèst
Italian: ovest
Sicilian: (punenti)
Romanian: vest
Catalan: oest
Castilian: oeste
Portuguese: oeste


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


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