LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (09) [E]

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (06) [E]

Hello,

I suspect that the form 'father our' (German, Gothic, etc.) most likely is
based on the Greek form (which is older than the Latin form) which begins
"father our". Many traditions keep a more or less Greek word order even
though it may go against many rules of normal syntax - I guess liturgical
texts are somewhat flexible (maybe it's thought to make them more "older"
sounding (?)). Coptic, which is also one of the first "other" languages the
prayer was translated into, keeps proper Egyptian word order (pen-jôt), but
many other parts are very awkward in Coptic as the Greek sentence
construction was kept.

Mike S


From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int <Georg.Deutsch at esa.int>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.20 (01) [E/LS/German]

Good day!

Jan Strunk asked Low Saxon speakers about the common usage of constructions
including the formula
"Vadder unser" (our father), from, as I assume, the well-known Christian
prayer.

I am not one of the targeted Low Saxon speakers, however, I thought, maybe
it
is worthwhile to mention what of course Jan does know very well:
The standard German version of this prayer is starting with "Vater unser"
which would be in normal context (outside this religious context) considered
as a wrong construction in German.

I do not know whether this German version (created by Luther?) is reflecting
the Latin "Pater noster" or maybe even the Gothic (attar unsar) or has other
reasons.
Since the Dutch, Afrikaans and Frisian versions are closer to common speech
(onze vader / ons vader / us Heit), one could be tempted to think that the
Low Saxon "Vadder unser" might be built under German influence.
Is this the case?
On the other hand the Old Saxon  (Heliand) version also starts with: "Fadar
ûsa". Of course, I have no clue if this did reflect the then (1200 years or
so ago) normally used construction.

groeten

Georg Deutsch

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (06) [E]

Hello,

I suspect that the form 'father our' (German, Gothic, etc.) most likely is
based on the Greek form (which is older than the Latin form) which begins
"father our". Many traditions keep a more or less Greek word order even
though it may go against many rules of normal syntax - I guess liturgical
texts are somewhat flexible (maybe it's thought to make them more "older"
sounding (?)). Coptic, which is also one of the first "other" languages the
prayer was translated into, keeps proper Egyptian word order (pen-jôt), but
many other parts are very awkward in Coptic as the Greek sentence
construction was kept.

Mike S


From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int <Georg.Deutsch at esa.int>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.20 (01) [E/LS/German]

Good day!

Jan Strunk asked Low Saxon speakers about the common usage of constructions
including the formula
"Vadder unser" (our father), from, as I assume, the well-known Christian
prayer.

I am not one of the targeted Low Saxon speakers, however, I thought, maybe
it
is worthwhile to mention what of course Jan does know very well:
The standard German version of this prayer is starting with "Vater unser"
which would be in normal context (outside this religious context) considered
as a wrong construction in German.

I do not know whether this German version (created by Luther?) is reflecting
the Latin "Pater noster" or maybe even the Gothic (attar unsar) or has other
reasons.
Since the Dutch, Afrikaans and Frisian versions are closer to common speech
(onze vader / ons vader / us Heit), one could be tempted to think that the
Low Saxon "Vadder unser" might be built under German influence.
Is this the case?
On the other hand the Old Saxon  (Heliand) version also starts with: "Fadar
ûsa". Of course, I have no clue if this did reflect the then (1200 years or
so ago)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

I have always assume that in certain precontemporary varieties and modes the
[[noun][pron]] construction is ...

(1) restricted to nouns that express people with whom one has a close
relationship (e.g., "father our," "darling mine"), and

(2) is a holdover from a time in which this was the normal (Indo-European)
construction, including also the placement of adjectives (as still found in
Romance and Celtic).

This construction is still used in German songs (e.g., _Liebchen mein_ 'my
darling', instead of the usual _mein Liebchen_) and in Yiddish songs (e.g.,
די מאמע ×ž×™×™× ×¢ _di mame mayne_ 'my mother', instead of the usual ×ž×™×™× ×¢ מאמע
_mayne mame_, also in Slavonic songs and sometimes even in speech (e.g.,
Russian любимая моя _ljubimaja moja_ 'my darling', instead of usual моя
любимая _moja ljubimaja_).  In Norwegian, and also in some Swedish
varieties, this is the usual construction involving nouns that denote people
or things that are closely linked to oneself (e.g. _far min_ 'my father').

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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