LL-L "Etymology" 2004.04.21 (14) [D/E/F]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 21.APR.2004 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.04.21 (01) [E]

> From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.04.20 (hunkers)
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> 'Hunkers' is an 'english' word, I don't think I made
> any Northumbrian claim on it? - although we say it
> differently. Hunkers is still used here probably becos
> it was used extensively in the pitmatic dialect of
> Northumbrian (i.e. dialect used in mining), i.e. 'doon
> urn 'ees honkas' (down on his hunkers). Haven't heard
> it used much elsewhere in England or rest of UK but it
> would be interesting to know if it is.
>
> It's interesting how older english words formerly used
> widely across english speaking world survive only in
> certain localities.
>
> Glenn

As an addition: in West Frisian there is the expression "yn 'e hoksen sitte"
for
"sit doon urn ees honkas", and Dutch "op je hurken zitten". This might be
related as well
(seems quite likely...). "hokse" means Dutch "knieholte" (so the bit at the
back of the knee).
In the Grut Wurdboek fan 'e Fryske Taal there is a reference to 2 papers
(one by Gosses, another by Hoekema) where the etymology is discussed.
Also where English (and Dutch) use "heels" in the expression "to be on
someone's heels" (iemand op de hielen zitten", in Frisian we say "ien efter
(OR op) de hoksen sitte".

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.04.20 (07) [E]

> From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.05 (02) [A/E/German]
>
> From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (10) [E]
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm intrigued that the Afrikaans form _bakvissie_ for an immature giggly
> young girl seems
> so similar to the Low Saxon _backwaschen_ (bagvaske).
>
> Any connection?
>
> Regards, Elsie Zinsser

Ik bin bang fan net: it resint ferskynde Etymologisch Woordenboek van het
Nederlands (A-E)
seit dat it ûntliend is oan Dútsk "Backfisch" 'jong meisje' [1555].
De oarspronklike betsjutting wie "fisk om te bakken". 'de vissen die nog
niet groot geneog zijn om afzonderlijk berid te worden, gaan samen de pan
in. In Duitse studentenkringen heeft Backfisch aanvankelijk de betekenis van
"onrijpe student" [1550], misschien door de klankovereenkomst met
baccalaureus [zie baccalaureaat]; niet veel later komt de betekenis
"onvolwassen, puberaal meisje" op.' It bestie (no hast oeral, lykas yn it
Nederlânsk, ferâldere) ek yn it Ingelsk: bachfish [1888; OED], Deensk
'bakfisk, bakfisch' Sweedsk 'backfisk, backfish'. It fryske 'bakfisk'
betsjut allinnich mar "fisk om te bakken".

> ........_Bak_ (<back>) in the sense of 'back' (and also 'against the
wind')
> is apparently specific to the dialects of Hamburg.  Hamburg dialects are
> known
> for their large number of (older) English loanwords that entered the
> language mostly by way of seafarer and merchant jargons.  So, my guess is
> that German got it from Hamburg LS (most likely from the dialect of the
> fishing community Finkwarder/Finkenwerder), and the German word entered
> Afrikaans in the form of a calque (i.e., loan translation) with the
> "obligatory" Afrikaans diminutive thrown in for good measure.

Bak foar "rêch" is algemien germaansk en bliuwt ek bewarre yn Nederlânske
wurden as
"bakboord" en "achterbaks", en Fryske wurden as "bekling" (rugleuning) en
"tebek" (achteruit)
en noch in pear mear. Fansels hat it Ingelsk it noch bewarre, en ek yn it
Skandinaafsk komt
it (byg. Deensk "bag-") noch foar. My tinkt, hjir is gjin inkelde
ferklearring mei lienwurden nedich.
Oare wurden yn it Hamboarchsk kinne bêst út it Ingelsk komme, mar "bak" sit
der net by, tink.

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.04.21 (01) [E]

Dear Roger Hondshoven:
    On the other hand, 'kuil' in Afrikaans is a pool - often dry, but then
this is a dry country.

 Hi; Glen Simpson:
    Thanks for the feedback.
    Your 'Claes' doesn't ring a bell: We say 'Klere'.
    A crybaby, on the other hand, we call a 'tjankbalie'.
    'Reed Het' sounds grand, but we would say 'Brandwarm'. The cognate to
English 'Heat' or whatever is avoided since it is an euphemism for a) 'Lust'
or b) 'On Heat - as for a tabby cat. Our word 'Lus' applies to any appetite
at all, not exclusively to the libido.
    Do you use the word 'Skellum' there?
    Some more: When after Robert the Bruce's anguished confession outside a
certain church in Dumfries, his henchman Douglas Dubh said, "Think? Think!
Then I'll mak siccur."
How would a Tynesider say it? In Afrikaans it would be, "Dink? Dink! Dan
Maak ek seker."
    One more thing: Outside Glasgow, I hear, is a church of the local grey
stone, & the community it serves, called in it's name, 'Falkirk'. A Scottish
lass I met in Israel came from thence, & she told me it referred to the
colour of the stone, a dirty grey.
In Afrikaans we would perhaps call it 'Vaalkerk'. Our Vaal Rivier is a dirty
grey from the vast burden of silt it washes into the sea.
    Yrs Sincerely,
Mark Dreyer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (above/benoarden):

> As an addition: in West Frisian there is the expression "yn 'e hoksen
sitte"
> for
> "sit doon urn ees honkas", and Dutch "op je hurken zitten".

In the North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _in dey huuk
sitten_ (<in de Huuk sitten>).

_Huuk_ (~ _huk_ (<Huck>) has two basic meanings:

(1) corner, nook, bend, point, spit (of land) (cf. Dutch _hoek_)

(2) bent legs, squat > back of thighs
    (e.g. also _dey huuk vul krygen_ "to get one's "huuk" full" =
    'to get a beating/spanking')

> Oare wurden yn it Hamboarchsk kinne bêst út it Ingelsk komme, mar "bak"
sit
> der net by, tink.

Ek it wurd _bak_ alinne (bygelyks "Vaart wy maal gau bak!")?  Net ferjitte:
Dit wurd is alinne in de dialekte fan Hamboarch en fan de rêst fan it
Ûnder-Elve-Lân te fine.

Groetnis,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================