LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.22 (01) [E]

Thu Apr 22 15:07:07 UTC 2004

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 22.APR.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
=======================================================================

From: D. Hoying <stfranc at bright.net>
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2004.04.21 (07) [E]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind reply and for your suggestions.
I had thought also that BÃ¤ckhuus, meaning bakehouse / oven
as a code word for the outhouse.
A number of years back we had a man visit us from Vechta,
and who writes extensively in Platt. He gave in English
a talk on the Heuerleute situation at the time of immigration to Ohio,
the mid 1830's. In speaking of the dire housing situation, he
explained how many families lived in sheds, outbuildings, etc.,
including BÃ¤ckhuusen. That took everyone by surprise, for we
all thought he meant outhouses when he actually did mean
bakehouses.  Afterwards, he explained to us that he did not
know of such a name for the outhouse in Oldenburg. This has
led me to find then a different source for the word's origin.
Yes, the word Wietkieker is an Americanism from my mothers'
family. When the song, "You are My Sunshine" was popular,
one of my mother's cousins, a small child then, after hearing the song
on the radio in English was singing it in Platt , and perhaps
with no deliberate intention to do so.

I believe that one of the most difficult things in recording
the Platt sayings, etc. is to know how to spell the words. There
seems to be such a variation in spellings from one writer to the next
and with each variation  having its strong supporters, some even
most rabid, who would not recognize even another spelling as legitimate.
For example, what is the proper way to spell "THE". Is it "DE",
"DEE", "DEI", or "DEY"?  And, exactly how is it supposed to
be pronounced?  The difficult situation for me is this: our Ohio
Platt has not changed for 160 some years. Our "ch" and "sch"
are hard as rock when sounded - "k" and "sk", rather than the
mitigated "sh" that is presently used in Oldenburg Platt.
The Oldenburgers correct us for using the hard sound. But,
if we did not use it, it would not be Ohio Platt any more.
(One of my favorite words is for umbrella - Regenskirm - with
its "g" sound and the hard "k".) The other difficulty is the
extended vowel, as given above with the word for THE. In my
limited perception, when I heard my grandparents, great aunts
and uncles speak it, and now with my mother, the tendency
seems for a shorter vowel sound than what present Oldenburger
Platt would find acceptable. This is the perception of what
I heard, but I find a tendency with present Oldenburger Platt
to always make the vowel have a longer sound. (It seems
that there might be a contest to see who can cram as
many vowels between two consonants as possible.) With the
use of so many vowels, when the words are spoken I cannot
understand them. Again when I pronounce them the way I heard
them, I am again corrected. They want the longer vowel.
Also,when written, I find it most difficult to try to pronounce
the words as they are spelled, but they never come out in the way
I heard them. So then, how does one spell THE to represent
its usage in Ohio Platt - to keep it short yet with a nuance of
a slight length? Would the use of DÃ  be acceptable?

The area of Ohio that I am referring to are the following townships:
Jackson Township, Auglaize County, with Minster as its main town,
McLean Township, Shelby County, with Fort Loramie as its main town,
Marion Township, Mercer County, with Maria Stein as its main town, and
Granville Township, Mercer County, with Saint Henry as its main town.
The majority of the initial settlers, about 60%, were from Oldenburger
MÃ¼nsterland,
with others from Hannoverian OsnabrÃ¼ck, and Westphalia. There were also
some from Baden, Bavaria, Alsatia, and Hessia. With this high percentage of
Low Germans especially from Oldenburger MÃ¼nsterland, and a good number
from the Westphalian MÃ¼nsterland, I call these four townships, the "Ohio
MÃ¼nsterland".
and the Platt language spoken here Ohio Platt.  The vocabulary of the Ohio
Platt is
predominated by the vocabulary of the Platt from Damme, Oldenburg. Over 500
immigrants from Damme settled here, and they constituted the single largest
identifiable group. In total, over 2000 immigrants came from Oldenburger
MÃ¼nsterland
to the Ohio MÃ¼nsterland. Immigration began in 1832 and continued strong
through the
1830's and 1840's and with each successive decade it lessened. The last
family
came over in about 1895.

I hope that I have not been wearisome.
David A. Hoying

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi again, David!

Thanks for explaining some more about your dialect and your community.  It
wasn't one bit wearisome, at least not to me.  In fact, the more we can find
out about it the better.  We should perhaps come up with a Web presentation
about it and about other non-European Lowlands Saxon (Low German, "Platt")
varieties.  We could start with writing an introductory blurb about your
dialect for "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), a project on
which we are (still) working and which we are partly reworking.

A few years back, a Roman Catholic priest of your area contacted me, and I
helped him verify, "clean up" and provide background information to some
dialect words and expressions he wanted to use in annals and in other types
of historical writings.  I helped him on the basis of the assumption that
the dialect of your area is one in its own right, related to but in no way
dependent on the dialects of its ancestral European region.  In several ways
it is clearly more conservative than its European relatives while at the
same time having taken on a North American tint.

David, I suggest that you and your community disregard any "should"- and
"should not"-type suggestions from people in Germany (except this suggestion
of mine ;-) -- but then again I'm not in Germany but in the U.S.).  Your
dialect is your own and does not need to be tweaked by any outsiders.  It
should be regarded as being its own entity.  It is about time people back in
Europe get used to the fact that there are American dialects of the
language, and their speakers should try to continue their own traditions as
Americans, yet also as members of the world-wide language community.

David, if there are any language-related organizations (and this may include
churches) in your area, you might like to give me that information.  I would
then add it to the resource register "Nu is de Welt platt!"
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm), designed to bring
the community together worldwide.

Indeed, orthography is a big problem, not only for you, and it is a big bone
of contention.  Particularly the German-based spelling systems used in
Germany are in several ways quite unsuitable for the language.  However,
please do not let this stand in your way.  If you wish, and I would be happy
to give you some pointers and could help you present your material written
both with German-based spelling and with alternative phonemically based
spelling.  I am pretty sure that my buddy Kenneth Rohde Christiansen
(dheghnom at hotmail.com) would not mind participating, but I cannot speak for
him.  Spelling can always be changed later, as long as we know the
pronunciation.  The main thing is that you (and perhaps others) start
recording the information.  Please say hello to your mother and other
speakers in your community, and tell them that there are people that really
want to know about their language and culture and that it is important to
gather and preserve this type of information.

Please keep us informed.

'n Gouden wind in Dyn sayls!
('n goden Wind in Dien Seils!)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================