LL-L "Terms of address" 2004.04.22 (13) [E]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Terms of address" 2004.04.22 (10) [E]

Ron wrote:

> This reminds me of my initial struggle against being addressed and
referred
> to as _Oom_ (< Dutch for 'uncle') in Indonesia (when I was in my early
> thirties), even by elderly people, even in Indonesian and Javanese.  I
> didn't exactly feel comfortable with the association with colonialism.

Oh man... I could NEVER get used to being called "Ma'am" in the USA (I lived
on the West Coast from the age of 32 to 40). I always had this vision of
Hoss Cartwright lifting his hat with an endearing little grin... didn't know
whether to laugh or cry. I always perceived that it was said in a rather
aggressive manner, too... the kind of in-your-face "politeness" you receive
from, let's say, a shop attendant who thinks you've got a screw loose (like
all those "baggers" in Supermarkets whom I forced to keep their incompetent
paws off my groceries because I had brought my own environment friendly
cloth bags and liked to pack them myself, and properly).

Same with "Sir" these days, I think, outside of the military. It's the
American way to let you know they think you're thoroughly obnoxious and
they're saints to put up with you... or is it just me? :-)

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Terms of address

Gabriele:

> Same with "Sir" these days, I think, outside of the military. It's the
> American way to let you know they think you're thoroughly obnoxious and
> they're saints to put up with you... or is it just me? :-)

I can't speak for others, but I can say that it's not me.

Yes, I admit that, when I first came to the States, this "sir" and "ma'am"
thing sounded ... well, old-fashioned to me ("Oh, no! It's like back in
Britain/Europe!").  However, as in the case of _Oom_ in Indonesia, I soon
realized that this was *my* problem, *my* culture shock, not the problem of
the people who grew up with the culture to which I was a newcomer.  (I
realized that a good decade of residence in Western Australia with its
relatively greater social equality, its unadorned interpersonal honesty and
its scarcity of crowds had "spoiled me rotten.")

In my way of thinking, never getting used to something like this (which
includes not tolerating it) would be a sign of insufficient acculturation
and cross-cultural openmindedness.  ("When in Rome ...")  Sure there are
things with which I have greater initial problems than with others.  But
again, I chalk that up to my own limitations, and I try to deal with it in
the course of personal growth.  Besides, how would I be able to live in
peace if I never cease to feel rubbed the wrong way by social customs that I
encounter on a daily basis?

It is true that there are numerous ways of saying "sir" and "ma'am" and that
this includes the snooty way you mentioned.  However, it is not like you
encounter the latter all the time.  Most of the time "sir" and "ma'am" are
said in polite or neutral ways when people want to address you but don't
know your name, or they want to appear servile and alternately use "sir" or
"ma'am" and your name in order not to be too repetitive.  I prefer forced
politeness to unreserved surliness and apathy as is commonly encountered in
German cities and in German delicatessen stores in North America and
Australia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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