LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.13 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.AUG.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Bill Wigham <redbilly2 at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.12 (06) [E]

IDear Henry and Luc,
        I may be guilty of having led you down a lane that has turned into a
stony path.
Like so many family traditions, this sugar bowl thing has evidently been
warped and misinterpreted since I first heard it.  Granny might have had an
anti- Yorkshire ax to grind.  My supposed relatives in Northumberland gave
me a strange look when I quoted the inscription, ending it with, "th'sel' ".
I sensed that something was not right and am now convinced that Henry's
version is that which I originally heard from Grandma.  I can only guess
what "Thisen" means.  Has it possibly got something to do with "Thy son"
instead of "thy self".   Sorry that having never seen the sugar bowl
personally I can shed no additional light on the rest of the its message.
Luc may have the answer, though.

Thank you both for your help
Bill Wigham
Westfield, Massa adchu set

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.12 (09) [E]

Dear John,

Subject: Language Varieties:

> Just a small point, but Anglo-Saxon or Old English is not Low German. I
> suppose it could be called a West Germanic Language unaffected by the High
> German sound shift.

I beg to differ. 'Old Saxon' is manifestly ancestral to modern Saxon
dialects, whose 'Low German' status is not open to challenge.
But you have struck a pertinent nail on the head. It was the High German
sound shift that moved the languages in question away from the others, so
that it may be we categorise as 'Low German' by default all the rest. Is
this a satisfactorily significant divide, defining, as it does, by default
of a change relevant largely to another, different, dialect group?

By the way, Isn't 'The Fall of the Angels' representative of Continental
Old Saxon? If so, then I for one see it as a close, indeed, intimate,
relation to Insular Anglo-Saxon. Even if this is not the case, The Northern
English dialects have so much, grammatically & terminologically, in common
with Continental Low German dialects (it seems to me) & Afrikaans
(definitely), that I fail to see where, or how, you would draw the
demarcation line, without cutting out North English dialects.

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.12 (06) [E]

John Feather wrote:
> About 25 years ago, visiting Fleetwood, I first heard the usage "I never
go
> there, me", where "me" is obviously an intensifier. I suppose in posh
> English we might say "I myself ...". I took it to be a local idiom but
> nowadays it seems to be a fairly common feature of Universal Demotic
English
> (ie what people learn from watching TV soaps). Is it actually a northern
> expression originally?

This sounds to me like it was adopted directly from the French: "Je n'y vais
jamais, moi."

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Steven Hanson <hanayatori at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Terminology


I'm curious about the term "Lowlands Saxon".  Is "Lowlands" meant to
specifically distinguish it from the Saxon brought to Britain, or does it
help to emphasize it's status as a Lowlands language?  Pardon my
newbie-ness.  :-)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Steven,

I don't think anyone will blame you for asking.  It is rather confusing.

LOW GERMAN
(1) used in Germany to refer to all "Low" varieties, lumping together both
Saxon- and Franconian-derived varieties of the "Low" persuation (i.e., those
that did not undergo the "High German shifts")
(2) used as as a label for a West Germanic branch, to which all Low(lands)
Saxon and Franconian varieties belong, thus including Dutch, Brabantish,
Zeelandic, West Flemish, Limburgish and Afrikaans, besides Low(lands) Saxon
(of Germany and the Netherlands) and Low(lands) Franconian of Germany
* This name is ambiguous, having been used once to refer to Dutch as well

LOW(LANDS) SAXON (of "Lower Saxon")
denotes only the truly *Saxon*-based varieties of the European continent
(and their more recent transplants elsewhere), excluding all Low(lands)
Franconian varieties (see above) of the "Low German" branch, "Low(lands)"
being added to distinguish them from the "(Upper) Saxon" varieties of
today's German state of Saxony, which usurped the name and whose language
varieties are not Saxon-derived but are mostly Thuringian-derived

I hope I clarified it.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================