LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.23 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.AUG.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.18 (07) [E]

What is"standard English"?

A "standard" grammar there may well be, but can one say that there is a
"standard" pronunciation?

Some citizens of the UK maintain that RP is "standard".

I now go out of my way not to affect RP, especially when I now hear so many
varieties of English pronunciation on the BBC.

As regards my dialect (Lancashire), it is certainly not dead where I come
from and where I, as did most of my acquaintances, worked "down the pit"
most of our lives before the British coal industry was destroyed.

On arriving home with my Russian wife in 1997, a former workmate of mine
said to me: "Nay!  Th'art a fawse un! Tha ne'er towd us that tha'dst getten
wed."

(Now! Thou art a false one!  Thou never told us that thou hadst got wed.")

On hearing this and my further discourse with my erstwhile colleagues, my
wife asked why we were talking German!

Aw reet! Dos't get wor ahm on abayht?

(All right! Dost thou get what I am on about?)

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

Glenn wrote:

>I've been doing research & it seems
clear that modern English .. is more closely related to Anglian than saxon,
although there are overlaps of course. The Angles
themselves came from what is now Denmark and the
border area of Germany. The Anglian tongue itself also
appears to have emerged from old scandanavian or is
strongly influenced by it.<

I'd like to know more about this. What do we know about Continental Anglian?
What features are still detectable in English? How would you set about
making a quantitative comparison with Saxon features?

John D:

Chambers Dictionary has alternative ModE forms mun, man, maun. ON. man, mon,
mun, Infinitive munu. Onions has ON muna, cognate with 'mind'.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (06) [E]

Dear John Duckworth& Reinhard,

Subject: Language Varieties

> While thinking about the Lancashire dialect and looking through the two
old
> poems by Samuel Laycock I began thinking about the Modal Auxiliary Verb
> _maun_.

> Now, I think I have come across a Verb similar to this in the Scandinavian
> languages (I know Old Norse had _munu_ 'shall,will'). Can anyone enlighten
> me as to the Scandinavian cognates? I think Middle English had an
auxiliary
> verb _man_, but I can't seem to find it in any texts, since it coincides
> with the word for 'man'.
>
> Also, does anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages?
> How about negative imperative _moenie_ ['muni] (< *moet nie 'must not') in
> Afrikaans; e.g., _Jy moenie slaap nie_ ("You mustn't sleep not") 'You
> mustn't sleep', 'Don't sleep!'?

Is that fair, Ron, since as you point out it is a contraction of 'moet nie'?
I think John is correct, that it comes to Northern English from the Norse, &
means 'must'.
"Ah mun coom wi' thee."

 Regards,
Mark

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (06) [E]


  From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
  Subject: Language Varieties

  Hello, Lowlanders!

  While thinking about the Lancashire dialect and looking through the two
old
  poems by Samuel Laycock I began thinking about the Modal Auxiliary Verb
  _maun_.
Could it be related to the Dutch verb "moeten", and the flemish equivalent
"moet'n"
V:ik moe(te) - je/gij moet - hij moet - wijder moet'n - gijder moet - zijder
moet'n
V:Moeme/ Moewe =E Do we have to (must we)
v:Moe'ze =E Do they have to (Must they)
v: Moetie = E: Does he have to (Must he)

  _maun_ , which we Prestonians used to pronounce more like _mun_ [m?n],
used
  to occupy the semantic ground now taken up by the verbs _should_ and
  _ought_. It is often glossed as 'must', but I think that is because of the
  orthographic resemblance between the words; I am more apt to think of it
as
  'should'.

  In the poem _Bonny Brid_, the father says: _But aw munno fear thee_ (but I
  shouldn't be afraid of you.), the Present Negative form of _mun_.

munno = V: moenie
Ex.
Ik moenie nao skole = E: I don't have to go to school.

  This Verb, _maun_ / _mun_, seems to have been quite common in dialects. It
  certainly occurs in Ulster Scots, e.g. _Ye maun hae wrocht fur thrie yeir
or
  mair_ (you should have worked for three years or more)
V: Je moeste gewrocht hèn voe drie jaar of meêr.

  (see:

http://jobfinder.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/servlet/jobfinder/ExtractAdvert?adID=136438
  for examples); Yorkshire dialect, e.g. _Yan mundeea as weel as yan can_
(you
  should do as well as you can);

V:Je moet zo wel doen as(=of) da je kunt

  Scots, e.g. _an A maun sey ti hir_ (And I
  must / should say to her).

V: En ik moe zeg'n teg'n eur.

  It also appears in the dialect poetry of D.H. Lawrence, which is based on
  the Nottingham dialect, and in his prose when his characters are speaking
in
  that dialect. In the novel _Lady Chatterley's Lover_ Her Ladyship tries to
  emulate the dialect of her lover, and we find both forms occurring:

  "
  He laughed. Her attempts at the dialect were so ludicrous, somehow.

  `Coom then, tha mun goo!' he said.
V: Kom ton, ge moe gaon! zei t ie

  `Mun I?' she said.
V: Moete kik?/ Moe kik?

  `Maun Ah!' he corrected.

  `Why should I say maun when you said mun?' she protested. `You're not
  playing fair.' "

  Now, I think I have come across a Verb similar to this in the Scandinavian
  languages (I know Old Norse had _munu_ 'shall,will'). Can anyone enlighten
  me as to the Scandinavian cognates? I think Middle English had an
auxiliary
  verb _man_, but I can't seem to find it in any texts, since it coincides
  with the word for 'man'.

  Also, does anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages?

  John Duckworth

  Preston, UK
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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

John D: All is not lost. BBC Radio 7 has been broadcasting a large selection
of Marriott Edgar's monologues over the last week or so. If you're quick you
should be able to hear some of them on www.bbc.co.uk "Marriott's Monologues"
was broadcast at 9 am, 6.30 pm and 12.30 am starting on Aug 12. Programmes
are available on the site for 7 days after first broadcast so hurry!

I have always thought that "The Lion and Albert" would be great sung to the
tune of Peter Sarstedt's "Where do you go to my lovely". I'd love to do it
as a party piece but I can't play the guitar.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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