LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.23 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties


Críostóir wrote:

"John Duckworth cited D H Lawrence identifying Nottingham usage of _mun_ for
_should_. I had never heard or read of this usage until it was debated here,
so it must be (sadly) long extinct in Nottinghamshire today, unless it
persists to the the north and east of the county, where Yorkshire forms
begin. Nottingham English speakers today would say _ah shud_ for _I
should_".

My grandparents in Preston used this verb, but I cannot remember it being
used by my parents, and I don't think I have heard it at all in years. It
was however always used by my grandparents, unless they were speaking to
people who would obviously not understand it.

D.H. Lawrence was born, as you probably know, at Eastwood in Nottinghamshire
; I am not really sure whether that is in the north of the county or not.

The reference I gave to his usage of the word in _Lady Chatterley's Lover_,
however, was not an isolated case; he uses the word very often.Here is a
dialect poem by D.H. Lawrence which includes the word.

The Drained Cup
T' snow is witherin' off 'n th' gress—
Lad, should I tell thee summat?
T' snow is witherin' off 'n th' gress
An' mist is suckin' at th' spots o' snow,
An' ower a' the thaw an' mess
There's a moon, full blow.
      Lad, but I'm tellin' thee summat!

Tha's bin snowed up i' this cottage wi' me—
'Ark, tha'rt for hearin' summat!
      Tha's bin snowed up i' this cottage wi' me
While t' clocks 'as 'a run down an' stopped,
An' t' short days goin' unknown ter thee
Unbeknown has dropped.
      Yi, but I'm tellin' thee summat.
How many days dost think has gone?
      Now, lad, I'm axin' thee summat.

How many days dost think has gone?
How many times has t' candle-light shone
On thy face as tha got more white an' wan?
—Seven days, my lad, or none!
      Aren't ter hearin' summat ?

Tha come ter say good-bye ter me,
      Tha wert frit o' summat.
Tha come ter ha' finished an' done wi' me
An' off to a gel as wor younger than me,
An' fresh and more nicer for marryin' wi'—
      Yi, but tha'rt frit o' summat.

Ah wunna kiss thee, tha trembles so!
      Tha'rt daunted, or summat.
Tha arena very flig ter go.
Dost want meter want thee again? Nay, though,
There's hardly owt left o' thee; get up and go!
      Or dear o' me, say summat.

Tha wanted ter leave me that bad, tha knows!
      Doesn't ter know it?
But tha wanted me more ter want thee, so's
Tha could let thy very soul out. A man
Like thee can't rest till his last spunk goes
Out of 'im into a woman as can
      Draw it out of 'im. Did ter know it?

Tha thought tha wanted a little wench,
      Ay, lad, I'll tell thee thy mind.
Tha thought tha wanted a little wench
As 'ud make thee a wife an' look up ter thee.
As 'ud wince when that touched'er close, an' blench
An' lie frightened to death under thee.
      She worn't hard ter find.

Tha thought tha wanted ter be rid o' me.
      'Appen tha did, an' a'.
Tha thought tha wanted ter marry an' see
If ter couldna be master an' th' woman's boss.
Tha'd need a woman different from me,
An' tha knowed it; ay, yet tha comes across
      Ter say good-bye! an' a'.

I tell thee tha won't be satisfied,
      Tha might as well listen, tha knows.
I tell thee tha won't be satisfied
Till a woman has drawn the last last drop
O' thy spunk, an' tha'rt empty 'an mortified.
Empty an empty from bottom to top.
      It's true, tha knows.

Tha'rt one o' th' men as has got to drain
      —An' I've loved thee for it,
Their blood in a woman, to the very last vein,
Tha must, though tha tries ter get away.
Tha wants it, and everything else is in vain.
      An' a woma n like me loves thee for it.

Maun tha cling to the wa' as that stands ?
      Ay, an' tha maun.
An' tha looks at me, an' tha understan's.
Yi, tha can go. Tha hates me now.
But tha'lt come again. Because when a man's
Not finished, he hasn't, no matter how.
      Go then, sin' tha maun.

Tha come ter say good-bye ter me.
      Now go then, now then go.
It's ta'en thee seven days ter say it ter me.
Now go an' marry that wench an' see
How long it'll be afore tha'lt be
Weary an' sick o' the likes o' she,
      An' hankerin' for me. But go!

A woman's man tha art, ma lad.
      But it's my sort o' woman.
Go then, tha'lt ha'e no peace till ter's had
A go at t'other, for I'm a bad a bad
Sort o' woman for any lad.
   —Ay, it's a rum un!

Difficult Vocabulary.

_summat_ : something.

_'Ark, tha'rt for hearin' summat!_ : Hark! (Listen!) You are going to hear
something!

_Yi_ : yes.

_axin'_ : asking.

_wan_ : pale.

_Tha wert frit_ : you were frightened.

_a gel_ : a girl. (Lancashire dialect would always have said _lass_ ).

_Tha arena very flig_ : you aren't very ready.

_owt_ : anything (<aught)

_Did ter know it?_ : Did you know it?

_blench_ : blush.

_'appen_ : perhaps.

_an' a'_ : as well, too.

_ay_ : aye, yes.

_Maun tha cling to the wa' ?_ : Do you have to cling to the wall?

_hankerin'_ : longing.

_tha art_ : or _th'art_ : thou art, you are.

_th'alt_ : you will, thou wilt.

_ha'e_ : have.

_t'other_ : the other.

_ a rum un_ : a rum one. The word _rum_ was used as an adjective in
Lancashire too, to describe someone crafty, someone who is always getting
upp to things, someone who is incorrigible. You would often hear someone
described as _a rum bugger_ ; or a dodgy, suspicious thing that has happened
would be _ a rum do_.

John Duckworth

Preston, UK

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties


D. M. Pennington asked:

"What is"standard English"?

A "standard" grammar there may well be, but can one say that there is a
"standard" pronunciation?"

It was for this reason that I chose to write 'Standard English' in
apostrophes. There isn't really a 'standard English English', let alone a
'Standard English' in general.It is very arguable what exactly the Received
Pronunciation (RP) is any more. Still, when discussing dialects and their
divergences from more generally accepted 'standard' pronunciations, or when
trying to indicate to speakers from outside out dialect areas how to
pronounce certain sounds, we often have to refer to sounds that are more
widely accepted and recognized.

Mr. Pennington also said:

"As regards my dialect (Lancashire), it is certainly not dead where I
come from and where I, as did most of my acquaintances, worked "down the
pit" most of our lives before the British coal industry was destroyed."

You don't actually mention the area you are from, but I am surprised that
the dialect still survives so well there. During my lifetime I have
witnessed the virtual extinction of the Lancashire dialect in Preston. My
two grandmothers spoke a form of dialect that would have been difficult for
a non-Lancastrian to understand; they used not only variant pronunciation,
but many unique vocabulary items too. Nowadays it only seems to be the
oldest generation who actively uses any true dialect; the rest just use a
heavily accented form of colloquial northern English.

In other parts of Lancashire (or former Lancashire) that I have been, such
as Manchester, Bury and Rochdale, the same seems to be the case.

What you say, however, means that the dialect still survives in some mining
communites.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

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From: Dave Singleton <davidsin at pt.lu>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (06) [E]


On 22 Aug 2004 at 17:10, Lowlands-L wrote:

> From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Language Varieties
>
> Good Morning, Lowlanders!
>
> Here is a very humorous poem in a very watered down variety of
> Lancashire
> dialect. It was written by a man called Marriott Edgar in 1932. This man
> wrote quite a lot of humorous monologues, of which this is perhaps the
> best
> known. I wish I could have found you an audio file of someone reading
> it,
> because it is very funny. I remember hearing it on the radio when I was
> small.
>
> As I say, the form of dialect is very diluted, maybe because it was
> intended
> for a wider audience.


Moiën alleguer !!


For those interested in hearing the Stanley Holloway monologues the majority
can be found here


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/barnicle/stanley/shindex.htm


lots of laughs


Dave Singleton

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (01) [E]
>
>   From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
>   Subject: "Language varieties" [E]
>
>   I always say that the main characterictics of American English speech
are
>   derived from the southwestern dialects of England (Somerset, Dorset,
>   Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Hampshire and some of Oxfordshire) so it
> doesn't
>   surprise me.
>
>> Can you go further with that argument? Which 'American English speech' do
>> you mean?
>> Brad
>> Brad [E. Conatser]

See an earlier posting by Mr Sandy :) in the archives:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0110B&L=lowlands-l&P=R1110

Note also the indiscriminate use of "thee" for "thee" and "thou" by some
traditional religious groups in the US also seems to follow the West Country
usage.

> From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Language Varieties
>
> This Verb, _maun_ / _mun_, seems to have been quite common in dialects. It
> certainly occurs in Ulster Scots, e.g. _Ye maun hae wrocht fur thrie yeir
or
> mair_ (you should have worked for three years or more) (see:

Certainly it's normal in the Scots of Scotland - but just means "must".
Amother Socts auxiliary (somewhat rare or loterary-sounding these days) is
"buid" meaning "obliged to", eg:

"I coud scarce trow my ain een, an I buid to read it twice ower to mak
shuir.
"
(I could hardly believe my own eyes, and I had to read it over twice to make
certain).

The past tense form would be "bade".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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