LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.29 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Dave Singleton <davidsin at pt.lu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (08) [E]

Hello Ron,
On 28 Aug 2004 at 19:00, Lowlands-L wrote:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> This _dudeln_ is believed to ultimately go back to onomatopeoea.  However,
> it probably reached Continental Germanic varieties from Slavonic
varieties.
> As you probably know, bagpipes used to be used all over Europe, and

Ron, you have the wrong tense here !! they are still played all over Europe
! and with Hurdy Gurdy
all sorts and sizes and shapes. I am also including our newly joined
European members as
 Estonia has a strong following. I believe today there are about 150-200
different types of pipes
 being made and played all over the world
> (unbeknowns to many people who associate them only with Britain and
Ireland)
> they are still played in many Continental areas.  The varieties of Eastern
> Europe, traditionally made from goat skins and still widely used as folk
> instruments, are known as _dudy_ in Kashubian, Polish, Czech, Slovak as
well
> as in Germany's two Sorbian (Lusatian) languages, and Bulgarian folkmusic
> relies heavily of bagpipes known as _duduk_.  (This is supposed to go back
> to Turkish *_duduk_, but I am not aware of such a word in Standard
Turkish,
> _tulum_ and _gayda_ being the words for 'bagpipes'.  Does anyone else
know?)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
The earliest known record of the name Dudey is from 1570 in Denmark, from
one Anders Dudey, bagpiper to the king of Denmark. Later Praetorius
explains (Syntagma Musicum) that Dudey is a sort of smallpipe as opposed
to a large bagpipe (Grosse Bock etc).

Dave  Singleton ( I play Northumbrian smallpipes  )

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

A problem with "dude" from Yankee Doodle is that there doesn't seem to have
been any hesitation in the spelling between "dude" and "dood" or in the
usage between "dude" and "doodle". If there had been "doodle" would be
recorded (or strongly tipped) as the source and we wouldn't be having this
discussion.

Doug wrote: "The word is first attested in 1877". Where? The date of 1883 is
specifically attached to NY City. "Sam Clements" - who he? Another pseudonym
of "Sam Clemens"? The incident described presumably happened well before
1879.

BTW, the term "Yanks" was widely used in the UK during and after the war,
but I knew a woman in Norwich in the 1950s who used the term "Yankee
Doodle". She was specifically referring to US Air Force personnel. I think
she had some arm's length contact with them because her husband worked for a
civilian contractor on one of the US bases in the area. I wondered if this
term might have had wider currency or whether it was just her usage.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Grietje MENGER <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (08) [E]

> From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> The connection was mentioned by Ron, and others, between the American
slang
> word _dude_ and _Yankee doodle_ of the song.

Maybe there's a bit of folk-etymology at work here on my part, but _Yankee_
would be from the Dutch first names _Jan_Kees_, I think that's accepted
wisdom, isn't it? Now, there's the term _Jan_Doedel_  not necessarily a
foolish person, more a milksop or a fop. So there's your _Yankee_Doodle_??
And could hence become _dude_.

Grietje Menger
Scotland

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From: Antero Helasvuo <antero.helasvuo at welho.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.27 (11) [E]

Lowlands-L wrote:

><quote>
>[A factitious slang term which came into vogue in New York about the
>beginning of 1883, in connexion with the ‘æsthetic’ craze of that day.
>Actual origin not recorded.]
></quote>
>
>So then I keep thinking, "Could it have come from Dutch, French or an
>aboriginal languages of the American northeast coast region?"
>
Hi.

I can't help but accept the theory of "dude" as an abbreviation of
"Yankee Doodle Dandy" equating dude to dandy. May I also point out that
"bagpipes" is "doedelzak" in Dutch. I can imagine Mr Jan Kees playing
his bagpipes on horseback.
Here is an article that gives many examples and speculations on the subject:
<http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ICQ/is_2003_July_7/ai_105189835
>
The illustrious but excentric Thomas "Dude" Esterbrook played with The
New York Metropolitans baseball team in 1883-1884:
<http://www.thedeadballera.com/Obits/Esterbrook.Dude.Obit.html>
You can also find a photo of Esterbrook plus a lot of information on
Webster's:
<http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/definition/english/du/dude.html>
And if you really really want to know what a dude is try
<www.googlism.com.>. Don't blame me. The truth is out there:
dude is so sexy...  dude is often there...  dude is a standard
greeting...  dude is a romantic dud... dude is the only animal capable
of digging up the handgun in the simpson's backyard... dude is a normal
iguana... dude is the dude...

---
Antero Helasvuo
Luutnantinpolku 9 C 20
00410 HELSINKI
Finland

Tel (Fax on demand) +358 9 5872345

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (08) [E]

Hello all,

A few comments from a bagpiper...

on 29.08.2004 4.00 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

> _Dudeln_ refers to playing the bagpipes or to grinding a hurdy-gurdy or
> street organ.  It also can be used for a sound that reminds you of this
> pause-less music of a hurdy-gurdy, hence _Dudelmusik_, and of course
> _Dudelsack_ ("doodle sack/bag") 'bagpipes'.

And of course cf. General Dutch _doedelzak_

> In this sense, _dudeln_ means also 'to play music badly (or without
> expression)' (which I resent if bagpipes are involved, which I happen to
> love).
>
> I have a feeling it is indeed related to English "doodle" and 'to doodle."

In English bagpipers use "to doodle (about)" for aimless or non-serious
playing (cf. "to fiddle about"), but it doesn't necessarily have the
connotation of playing poorly (non-bagpipers may disagree of course...).
Actually now that I think about it, I think "aimlessly" is the connotation
"doodle" mainly implies in English (such as in doodling on a piece of paper
(to draw aimlessly)).

I have never heard "doodle" applied to either hurdy-gurdies/draailieren
(barrel organs are something else). I'll ask a player I know if this is the
case.

[snip]

> This _dudeln_ is believed to ultimately go back to onomatopeoea.  However,
> it probably reached Continental Germanic varieties from Slavonic
varieties.

[snip]

> The varieties of Eastern Europe, traditionally made from goat skins and
still
> widely used as folk instruments, are known as _dudy_ in Kashubian, Polish,
> Czech, Slovak as well as in Germany's two Sorbian (Lusatian) languages,
and
> Bulgarian folkmusic relies heavily of bagpipes known as _duduk_.

The origin of _duda_, _dudy_, et al. is actually a very difficult question.
It could be of Slavic origin (cf. Russian _duda_ "pipe, shawm"). But Central
European and northern Eastern European languages do very often have words
related to _dudy_ and _duda_ but these are mainly used in areas that either
were directly ruled by German speakers (Prussia, Austria-Hungary, and
Germany proper), or had cultural and/or economic ties (of course, one could
easily say that these were areas of Slavic influence, with Flanders and the
Netherlands being on the far western edge).

As a term for "bagpipe", it goes as far north as Latvia and Lithuania (but
not Estonia), and as far south as Manastir in the former Yugoslavia.
However, the core region is Bohemia and northern Hungary. It does *not*
occur in Scandinavia (including Finland).

However, alongside _duda_, _dudy_, et al., are Slavic (and other) terms. For
example, in Poland, Ukraine, Byelorussia, and Russia the term _koza_ is
used; Poland also has _koziol_ [slashed "L"], lit. "billy goat" (cf. _Bock_
'billy goat" as a word for bagpipe in German as well).

To the south of the core area using _duda_, _dudy_, et al., is a region
where the main word for bagpipe is _gajda_, _gaida_ (with many variants in
various languages). This includes southern Poland, Bulgaria, Macedonia,
northern Greece, southern Hungary, parts of Turkey, Serbia, Croatia,
Slovakia, etc. It has been written that these various names derive from
Gothic _gaits_ "goat". I cannot confirm or deny that though that would
certainly make sense given that many European words for bagpipe mean
literally either "sheep" or "goat". Note however, Galician, Austrian, and
Portuguese _gaita_ comes from an Andalusian Arabic word (_ghaytah_, meaning
"(musical) pipe") and should not be confused with the S-E European homonym.

Of course _duda_ and _gajda_ do overlap in bordering regions, so it is not a
cut and dry issue. I would mention as an aside that smack in the middle of
this is Rumania, and that Rumanian terms for bagpipes are of Latin origin,
as is to be expected.

> (This is supposed to go back to Turkish *_duduk_, but I am not aware of
such a
> word in Standard Turkish, _tulum_ and _gayda_ being the words for
'bagpipes'.
> Does anyone else know?)

As you note, Turkish uses _tulum_ (meaning literally "bag") and (in western
Turkey) _gayda_. In Turkish _duduk_ means "pipe, whistle, flute", but not
specifically "bagpipe". As far as I know, _duduk_ is used for bagpipes in
the Caucasus, especially Georgia and Dagestan, but no where else. There is
an Armenian double reed bag-less pipe instrument known as a _duduk_, but
bagpipes are known as _parakap-zuk_.

I would mention, however, that most European countries (with the major
exception of Norway) have historically had least one type of bagpipe, and
most had more than one. Because of this, this terminology may have a much
more specific meaning locally. For example, in Poland the koza, dudy, gaida,
and bock are all different types of bagpipes. There are also a host of other
very interesting terms for bagpipes across Europe, North Africa, and the
Middle East (and indeed India and Malaysia) that have not been discussed
here.

Links of possible interest:

http://www.sackpfeifen.de/index.htm

Lots of photos and sound files:

http://www.hotpipes.com/

If anyone has any burning interest in bagpipes and would like some
bibliography, drop me a line offlist.

I would mention here 3 books here however:

Baines, Anthony. 1979. Bagpipes. 2nd ed. Occasional Papers on Technology 9,
ser. eds. T. K. Penniman, and B. M. Blackwood. Oxford: Pitt Rivers Museum,
University of Oxford. [mainly a technical discussion of various European,
African, and Asian bagpipes and their construction, but some discussion of
terminology; now in a 3rd edition (1995)]

Boone, Hubert. 1983. De volksmuziekinstrumenten in België en in Nederland:
De doedelzak. Brussel: Uitgeverij La Renaissance du Livre. [also available
in a French edition (La Cornemuse); primarily a social history of the
bagpipe in the Low Countries and discussions of both Flemish and Walloon
"dialect" terms for bagpipes in Belgium, and to a lesser extent, the
Netherlands and Germany]

Pondos, Theodor H. 1974. Bagpipes and Tunings. Detroit Monographs in
Musicology 3. Detroit: Information Coordinators, Inc. [lists names of
bagpipes in all kinds of languages and regional dialects, all across Europe
and Asia, but is a bit dated in places and must be used with care]

Lastly, a "false friend" that might be of some interest to English and Scots
speakers... Don't ever call yourself a "piper" or say you enjoy "piping"
around Dutch speakers... You may inadvertently cause uproarious laughter,
particularly if you are a male heterosexual; female heterosexuals may have
another reaction.

Cheers,

Troy

--
De moezel die moet wezen vul,
of anders maect zy gheen ghelul.

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron said:

"This _dudeln_ is believed to ultimately go back to onomatopeoea.  However,
it probably reached Continental Germanic varieties from Slavonic varieties."

Russian in fact has a verb дудеть _dudet'_ (to play a pipe / a fife), which
could have something to do with _dudeln_ ; it could also be from the noun
дудка _dudka_ , which means 'a pipe', 'a fife'. For some reason both words
seem to be absent from Vasmer's Etymological Dictionary.
Ron goes on to say:

"The varieties of Eastern Europe, traditionally made from goat skins and
still widely used as folk instruments, are known as _dudy_ in Kashubian,
Polish, Czech, Slovak as
well as in Germany's two Sorbian (Lusatian) languages, and Bulgarian
folkmusic
relies heavily of bagpipes known as _duduk_. "

The other Slavonic words fit in well with Russian дудка _dudka_ .There is a
Turkish word _düdük_ , meaning 'a whistle'. If you look at http://duduk.com/
however, you will find that a _duduk_ is an Armenian instrument
also.Descriptions appear also at http://www.araratmusiconline.com/duduk.asp
.

John Duckworth

Preston, UK



----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for all your responses, folks.  This musical instrument thing seems
to be rather popular, so much so that I was tempted to start a near thread
about it.

John Duckworth:

> There is a Turkish word _düdük_ , meaning 'a whistle'.

Ah, yes!  It didn't even occur to me to look for a front-vocalic word.  (It
was late and I was tired.)

_Düdük_ can refer to any sort of whistle or pipe, is very general in
meaning.  I have a feeling that it is not native, for otherwise I would
expect there to be a verb *_düd-_.  _Düdük_ can indeed be found in Eastern
Turkic, e.g., Uyghur _düdük_, but it looks like a Western Turkic loan
(otherwise probably *_tütük_ or *_tüdük_) and again there is no related
word.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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