LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.30 (07) [E]

Mon Aug 30 18:54:03 UTC 2004

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

I wrote re "dude":
>How about a jokey "doed up" for "done up"? <

Fred replied:
>It is the "doed up" that interests me. Not the etymology, but the spelling.
Given the associated word dude, I assume the "oe" is pronounced like "ou".
This seems like an odd spelling for an English word. The use of the letters
"u" , "oo" or even "ou"  would have been more appropriate,  ... I always
found the word canoe fascinating. It uses the "Dutch" oe. As far as I know
only Dutch and Indonesian (from before the 19 sixties, when Dutch influence
was wiped out of the Indonesian spelling) use the oe for that reason. When
it showes up in words like canoe and now in doed, it makes me wonder,where
does it come from? is/was it used more often? Why do away with it? or why
keep it in a word like canoe? Why not change it in canoo or something?<

My "doed" is simply a representation of an incorrect or informal way of
forming the preterite of "do" - what a child might say before learning "did"
(on which see my earlier posting). So the vowel sound comes from "do", the
"e" being part of the "-ed" suffix and as usual (but not te allen tijde)
silent. I can't immediately bring to mind any pronunciation of "ou" which
matches it: ought? would? noun? Of course there's Canadian "about", but Ed's
going to disagree with me aboot that.

Dutch people fiddle with spelling, respectable English people don't, on the
whole. It appears that it is the "oo" sound in "canoe" which has to be
explained, not the spelling (C18), which is from French "canoÃ«". Earlier
spellings suggest the pronunciation "ca-no" or something similar.

BTW the sound represented by Dutch "oe" and Eng "oo" in "fool" continues to
go through some amazing changes in Eng. I recently heard a (young, female)
BBC announcer pronounce the book title "Eats shoots and leaves" as "Eats
sheets and leaves". "Cool" as a term of approbation is pronounced in London
as something betwee "coa:" and "coal" (likewise "skoal" for "school") or
sometimes "kjule". So if we did decide on a consistent way of spelling "oo"
we would probably soon find that the sound itself had changed to make the
spelling nonsense.

Doug: thanks for checking up on my queries. It seems that the internet
throws up great weaknesses of the OED and etymological dictionaries based on
it, at least for more modern words. I still find it puzzling that if
"doodle" were the source of "dude" someone who specifically noted the
spelling "dood" would not think of that connexion.

You also wrote:
> We don't know much about the early history of the word: for example
"Yankee Doodle" > "Yankee Dude" > "dude" (with no "doodle" stage) is
plausible IMHO.< But how can you posit "Yankee Dude" rather than "Yankee
dood"?

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.30 (04) [A/E]

> From: Bill Wigham <redbilly2 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.29 (09) [E]
>
> From: Bill Wigham     redbilly2 at earthlink.net
> Subjt:  Yin
>
>    While reading about the ins and outs of Yin here I recalled a Mrs.
> Hartland, of fond memory, who mothered a chum of mine.  She came from some
> place near or in West Virginia or southern Pennsylvania and had a few
> strange words.  One of them was Yin or (plural) Yins, such as, "Did yins
> have a nice Christmas, Billy".  Would that have been a contraction of "You
> ones", something akin to Snuffy Smif's "Yo'uns"?

Yes, "yins" is characteristic of western Pennsylvania and parts of West
Virginia.  Farther south, in East Tennessee, it is pronounced more like
"yuns".  I've always understood it as a contraction of "you ones".

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

John (above):

> Dutch people fiddle with spelling, respectable English people don't, on
the
> whole. It appears that it is the "oo" sound in "canoe" which has to be
> explained, not the spelling (C18), which is from French "canoÃ«". Earlier
> spellings suggest the pronunciation "ca-no" or something similar.

The online _Oxford English Dictionary_:

<quote>
[In 16th c. _canoa_, a. Sp. _canoa_, a. Haitian _canoa_, the native name
found in use by Columbus. _Canoa_ continued in Eng. use into the 18th c.,
but before 1600 there appeared a parallel form _canow_, used with varieties
of spelling into the 18th c., which was apparently an Eng. modification of
_canoa_; in the course of the 17th c. appeared the forms _caano_, _cano_,
_canno_, _canoo_, _cannoe_, and _canoe_, of which _cano_ is also the Du.,
and _canoe_ an earlier Fr. form (in Cauxois' transl. of Acosta 1600).
  (The mod.F. _canot_ is considered by Diez and Scheler a dim. of OF. _cane_
ship, boat (prob. of Teut. origin: cf. LG. _kane_, Du. _kaan_, Ger. _kahn_,
also L. _canna_ small vessel, gondola); but it is perh. the word canoe spelt
according to a mistaken etymology. It is not however the equivalent of canoe
in English, but means simply â€˜little boatâ€™.)]
</quote>

I assume that by "Haitian" they mean Taino, the Carib variety native to the
Island of Hispaniola.

As for "Low German" _kane_, its predominant modern form is _kaan_ (<Kahn>).

Fred van Brederode about the spelling <oe>:

> I remember having seen a picture of Shanghai early 20th century. It shows
a
> building (a restaurant?) with on the side the name of its owner. The name
is
> in Latin script and the first part of the name is "Soen".  I would not
have
> been surprised if the picture was taken in the Netherlands Indies at the
> time, but the subscript definitely stated Shanghai.
> If taken in Shanghai, I would have expected Chinese characters in the
first
> place or, if it had to be Latin script, an English transcription. In
English
> spelling it would very likely have been "Sun".

Sure, and you may also be right with regard to Dutch influence (via
Indonesia).  However, remember that at that time the Guoyu/Putonghua
(Standard Chinese) movement was in its infancy, that there was no standard
romanization, and that Mandarin was used among Shanghai Chinese as a second
language (after the native Shanghainese Wu variety).  In most varieties,
including Mandarin ones, the /u/ is lax ("o-like," as in English "put") and
a schwa-like sound precedes it before /n/; e.g., Standard Mandarin å«
(simplified å™) _sun_ [sÊ É¤n] = [sU@\n], Nanjing/Nanking Mandarin
(geographically close to Shanghai) [sÊ É™n] = [sU at n].  (In the Wu variety of
Shanghai the same surname is pronounced [sÉ™Å‹] = [s at N].)  So, this spelling
_Soen_ may just as well have been an attempt at "phonetic" rendering.

I had written that _dudeldop_ doesn't seem like Lowlands Saxon (Low German).
Wrong!  I found that _dudeldop_ (<Dudeldopp> ['du:dldOp]) *is* used, along
with the variant _dudendop_ (<Dudendopp> ['du:dndOp]).  I'm not quite sure
what to make of this _dop_ part.  Derived from Dutch or Frisian _dop_
perhaps, 'husk', 'shell', '(cylindrical, hollowed) stop' ... ?  Well, there
is Eastern Friesland LS _dÃ¶pke_ (<DÃ¶ppke>) 'bowl of a tobacco pipe',
corresponding to _dÃ¶yvke_ (<DÃ¶Ã¶fke>, <DÃ¶Ã¶vke>) in other dialects, which
might remind you of _douv_ (<doof>) 'deaf' > 'stupid'.  Perhaps _dudeldop_
is just a case of meaningless alliteration, or it could be a case of more or
less complex inter-variety loaning and reanalysis.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <fvanlamoen at planet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (08) [E]

> From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> The connection was mentioned by Ron, and others, between the American
> slang
> word _dude_ and _Yankee doodle_ of the song.
>
> I had never thought of this before. I just looked up _doodle_ in the
> Shorter
> Oxford English Dictionary and found that it dates back to the 17th century
> as a slang word for a foolish person. It suggestes that the etymology for
> this was 'Low German' _dudeltopf_  or _dudelkopp_, with the same meaning.
> Surely _dudeltopf_ with final _-pf_ is a High German form though?
> Shouldn't
> it be _dudeldopp_ ?

This seems very related to Dutch _doetje_ which means 'softy', 'duffer'. It
is used in particular for males with (supposed) female behaviour.
The origin of _doetje_ is supposed to be old Dutch _doei_ 'silly
girl/woman'.

Let me also cite Frysk wurdboek:

doedel, doedeldop (...)
Traag, slof, slordig vrouwspersoon

doedelje (...)
1. Spelen, zingen, neuriÃ«n, zonder een bepaalde wijs te laten horen
2. Der nuver hinne doedelje, onbeholpen, onbeheerst lopen
3. Zijn tijd verbeuzelen. Pak oan jonge, dat doedelet mar wat.

Kind regards,
Floor van Lamoen.

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