LL-L "Etymology" 2004.12.02 (14) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Carl Witzel <cwitzjr at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.12.02 (10) [E]

Hi, Ron!

Thanks so much for your reply.  Your explanation echoes what I have found in
my research.
I have also seen the relationship to _veda_ and 'to see'.  And they make
perfect sense.

Ron wrote:

Isn't German _Witz_ related to English "wit" (also _witzig_ = "witty"), and
doesn't all this go back to the idea of 'to know' (e.g., E "to wit," G
wissen, LS weten, etc.)?

This is related to Sanskrit वेद _veda_ 'knowledge' (as in "the Vedas,"
scriptures of Hinduism, the Indian medical "ayurveda" [< आयुर्वेद āyurveda
"life knowledge"]), and िवन्दात _vindāti_ 'knows'.  Also note Sanscit िवज
_vija_ 'wise' and िवमनस् _vimanas_ 'very wise'.

Indo-European: *_woid-_

"Wise" etc. goes back to Indo-European *_weid-_.

I often wonder if this group of words is related to those of 'to see'; e.g.,
Slavonic *_vidĕti_ 'to see', *_vĕdĕti_ 'to know', Romance *_vīd-_ 'to see',
Greek εἰδέναι 'to know',  ἰδει̑ν 'to see'.

Yet 'Duden Familiennamen' and other sources tie _Witzel_ to _Witz_,
_Wetzel_;  indicating that _Witz_ is _Wit_ with a 'z' suffix, deriving from
_wig_, or possibly _widu_ ; _Wetzel_  is a short form of _Werner_, from
_weren_, 'to warn'.  Thus a path that has no root, but circles ungrounded.

So I am thinking that relating _Witzel_ to _Wetzel_ seems to be a large
error.  Changing the 'i'  to 'e' has no clear justification.  And _witz_ to
_wit_, as related to _wig_ or _widu_ just as incorrect.  But how could a
reference such as 'Duden Familiennamen' be so wrong?

The earliest form of _Witzel_ is _Wizelin_.  It occurs in Flanders about 950
AD.  The name changes: _Vizelin_ (Latin influence?), _Wissel_, _Wicel_,
_Witzel_, as sound shifts occur in the German language ( ? ): 'ss' = 'c'
='tz'.  As OS: _wit_, OHG: _wizzi_, G:_witz_.  This seems more sound, with
_Wizelin_, _Witzel_ deriving in some way from _weise_, _wit_, wis_, all
related to 'to know', 'to see'.

Do names follow the history of words?  Can _wig_, and _widu_ be logically
ruled out of the possible beginning of _Wizelin_?

And the question arises as to whether _Wizelin_ is LS, Frankish, or OHG?

Your thoughts are so greatly appreciated.

Regards to all.

Carl Witzel
von Amerika

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Carl!

Now I see where you are going with this.

Those are all very interesting questions, Carl, and apparently not very easy
ones.

At the very least for now ...

> And the question arises as to whether _Wizelin_ is LS, Frankish, or OHG?

I would not expect it to be Saxon, not Low Franconian either.  It looks
rather Old German.

However ...

There is this Saint Vicelin (Vicelinus, Vincelin, Vizelin, Wissel, Witzel,
Wizelin), the Apostle of Holstein (which used to be partly Slavonic) and of
the Obodrites (~ Abodrites, a Western Slavonic people of the greater Elbe
region and in what is now roughly Mecklenburg, possibly a far-western
community of Pomeranians).  Nevertheless, the fact that he worked in the
north should not make us jump to the conclusion that he was a Northerner, or
that his name is even Germanic.  For all we know, it could even be Latin
(*vicellinus 'neighbor' [dim.]?), or it could be of Slavonic origin.

Note that, like all Lowlands varieties, Lowlands Saxon has not undergone the
German t > ts shift, which makes the sequence /ts/ very rare, and then
mostly across morpheme boundaries.

But, let's assume this saint *was* from the area in the north ...  Couldn't
he have been a Slav, an Obodrite himself?

I can well imagine that Witzel is one of the many Germanicized Slavonic
names.  (And I take the claim that Wetzel is derived from Werner with a
large grain of salt, though it may well be true in some southern German
dialects.)

Slavonic origin of surnames is not always readily apparent (e.g., Mücke from
Sorbian Muka).  If it has been Saxonized, then I would not consider the
vowel difference in Witzel and Wetzel a real problem, given that this
variation is very common among LS dialects (e.g., hin ~ hen, dinken ~
denken, hill ~ hell, analogous to u ~ o, e.g., vun ~ von, hult ~ holt).

By no stretch of the imagination do I claim to have the answer.  I just wish
to open your mind to the possibility of a Slavonic origin.  Here just a few
knowns:

Wizlaw (= Viclav) was a very common first name, the name of several Slavonic
kings of the Rugian area (in today's state of Mecklenburg and Western
Pomerania).  Orthographic variations: Wizlaf, Wizlaff, Wizlav, Witzlaw,
Witzlaf, Witzlaff, Witzlav, Vizlav, Wislaw, Wieslaw, Wislaus, Wizlaus,
Vitislaus, Vicislaus, Witzan, Wilzan.  Witzlaff, Wetzlaff, Witzlaf, Wetzlaf,
etc., are not uncommon as "German" surnames.  I assume this name is related
to Czech Václav, Polish Wacław and Russian Вячеслав (Vjačeslav, Vyacheslav),
which are related to Venceslaus and Venceslav* (> Italian Venceslao, Spanish
Venceslás, Hungarian Vencel, German Wenzeslaus > Wenzel).  Apparently, this
personal name that also developed into a surname is derived from Slavonic
*_ventie_ 'more' and *_slav_ 'glory' > Old Church Slavonic Вѩштеславѹ
_Vęšteslavŭ_ (<ę> being a nasal /e/**).

*(Yes, it's the name of the good king in the Christmas song.)

** (Note that some West Slavonic varieties -- especially Lechitic ones:
Polish, Kashubian and Polabian -- have retained nasal vowels that demand
insertion of phonetic [n] before (palato-)dentals such as /s/, /t/ and /c/;
hence (/e~c/ -> [Ents]) Venceslaus, Wenzelsaus, Wenceslaw, etc., as variants
of the above.)

The "German" surname Wenzel or Wenzl is supposed to be derived from these
Slavonic names, with older variants like Venzlaus, Wanzel, Wenczusch,
Wenczlab and Wenczel.  I assume that the variants Winzel and Wintzel are
related to these.  Winzel, Witzel, Wenzel and Wetzel all occur as "German"
surnames (all of them common among German Jews as well).  I can well imagine
it possible that they are related and are of Germanicized Slavonic origin.

So, Carl, do you think I'm leading you somewhere or just astray?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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