LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.12.08 (02) [E/F]

Wed Dec 8 17:00:18 UTC 2004

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L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: A town in the Netherlands

Hello, All. I met a lady on the way back to my dormitory yesterday whose
surname was Van Sambeek. She said that there is a little town in the
Netherlands by that name, but she does not know where it is or anything
about
it. Where is it? How does its dialect sound compared with its closest urban
neighbor?
Graag,
Ben

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2004.12.07 (03) [E]

>>>>> Yes, I like that too Ron! It still looks quite familiar, this Old
Saxon, to Modern Saxon eyes, that surprised me.
And it shows too that Modern Saxon has been profoundly influenced by its
more 'Southern', less Ingveonic cognates,
say Franconian, like OldSax has still 'is' ('es') for 'his', ModSax only
'syn' etc, like Dutch zijn, German sein-. *Ingmar

>Mark Dreyer said:
> Dear Ron,
> Thanks so much for the Old Saxon Wren!

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From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.12.07 (04) [A/E/S]

Henno schreef:

> Yn 'e stêden wurdt Stedfrysk praten, en de measte stêden hewwe yndie in
> brijkjende, keel-R. dit komt faker foar, dat stêden in oare R hawwe as
> it lân deromhinne, dit is ek sa foar Swol en Kampen mids de Oeriselske
> dialekten. Myn omke (oantroud) komt út Swol (Zwolle) en het yndie sa'n
> R, mar net sa'n opfallenden ien as myn omkes út Harns (Harlingen)....
> It jildt ek as in middel om jin te ûnderskieden fan de "boeren" út de
> omkriten....
> De lytsere stêden (as Dokkum) hewwe neffens my mear in tong r bewarre,
> hoewol't dat tink allinnich mar mear jildt foar de âldere ginneraasje.

The same is true for *all* urban dialects of Zeêuws (Zeelandic). And urban
in this respect does not necessarily mean the dialects of the bigger towns
and cities of Zeeland today, but the dialects of the villages, towns and
cities that played an important role in the Zeelandic 'Golden Age' (ca.
1550-1725).
These not only include Vlissingen, Middelburg, Zierikzee and (partly) Goes,
but even the now tiny but once important miniature-city of Veere. The
dialects of all these places have a throat-r ([R]).
The surrounding countryside has a very sharp tongue-r ([r]). In fact, in my
very own town of Oost-Souburg the original rural dialect was replaced more
and more by the urban dialect of Vlissingen. About 85% of the people that
speak Zeelandic in Oost-Souburg now speak the urban variety and thus use
[R]. Nevertheless the rural dialect maintained [r], despite the fact that
speakers have been a language minority in their own village for almost a
century now.

By the way, even here in Zeeland 'popular linguistics' has it that the
French-sounding [R] were brought to the cities of Zeeland by Huguenots. That
is not true. There are sources indicating that at least governors and
noblemen of the city of Middelburg had [R] as early as the 15th century.
For the case of Afrikaans: I am not an expert, but isn't it logical to
assume that the [R] in certain dialects or language varieties came from the
urban dialects of South Holland and Zeeland cities? Most Huguenots, as
pointed out earlier on this list, had [r]. And the [R] being the result of
contact with speakers of a rare Javanese dialect from Surabaya or the few
Sotho-speakers that have [R] is too far sought as far as I am concerned.

Regards,

Marco Evenhuis

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From: David Pinto <david_e_pinto at yahoo.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.12.07 (04) [A/E/S]

Thanks for the link to languagehat. As a newcomer to Lowlands-L and
linguistic stuff on the net generally, I did not know of that site, with all
of its wonderful links.

Dave Pinto
Montreal
whose direct connection, apart from being interested in languages, with
Lowlands-L is tenuous at best -- a German mother and a
now-unfortunately-deceased Mennonite girlfriend

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language varieties

Welcome to the List and its active circle, David!  I hope we'll hear more
from you.

Oh, and sorry about your loss.

Kind regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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