LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.03 (05) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 03.FEB.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.01.25 (04) [D/E]

> From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
> Subject: Klotteren
> Klotteren is in Tilburg en omgeving een algemeen gebruikt woord voor
> het
> doen van sinterklaasinkopen, ook onder niet-dialectsprekers (dat zijn
> de
> meesten) is dat het geval. Het woord heeft de eeuwen overleefd en is
> feitelijk opgenomen in het beschaafd Tilburgs.
>
> Your attention please for Ewoud Sanders' regular colom "woordhoek" in
> the
> Dutch 'quality newspaper' NRC Handelsblad. Sanders makes interesting
> observations on the Dutch language (or his readers do). As a sample on
> his
> work I chose for an article on the word "klotteren". Klotteren means,
> in the
> Tilburg dialect, doing your St Nicolas shopping. The interesting part
> is
> that the word is also in use by non-dialect speakers. See the abstract
> below
> or click http://www.nrc.nl/woordhoek/index.html for the complete
> article or
> other articles.
>
> Gr.  Fred

Dag Fred,
In mijn "De Bo" heb ik ook het woord "klotteren" teruggevonden.
Zo is de betekenis in West-Vlaanderen:
Klotteren=kloteren=kleuteren = klutteren = door elkaar schudden (Het
gras wordt door elkaar geklutterd om rapper droog te worden) of
naarstig bezig zijn (De weirelt is vol timmerlieden: het klopt , het
kleutert, het timmert al dat' er is (F. Vande Werve))
Het kan ook kwellen, kloten, pierlen of duivelen betekenen.
Ik weet wel niet of dat allemaal verband houdt met uw woord uit Tilburg
hoor!

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Fred, Luc, Laaglanders/Lowlanders,

[English below]

> > Subject: Klotteren

> Klotteren is in Tilburg en omgeving een algemeen gebruikt woord voor het
> doen van sinterklaasinkopen, ook onder niet-dialectsprekers (dat zijn de
> meesten) is dat het geval. Het woord heeft de eeuwen overleefd en is
> feitelijk opgenomen in het beschaafd Tilburgs.

> Your attention please for Ewoud Sanders' regular colom "woordhoek" in the
> Dutch 'quality newspaper' NRC Handelsblad. Sanders makes interesting
> observations on the Dutch language (or his readers do). As a sample on his
> work I chose for an article on the word "klotteren". Klotteren means, in
the
> Tilburg dialect, doing your St Nicolas shopping. The interesting part is
> that the word is also in use by non-dialect speakers. See the abstract
below
> or click http://www.nrc.nl/woordhoek/index.html for the complete article
or
> other articles.

Ik geloof dat het woord "klotteren" en zijn varianten met het Engelse
werkwoord en zelfstandige naamwoord _clutter_ 'rommelig maken', 'in wanorde
brengen', 'rommel', 'warboel', 'janboel' verwant is.  De oorsprong van
_clutter_ schijnt een weinig onduidelijk te zijn. Men veronderstelt dat het
met _clod_ 'kluit' verwant is.  Maar ik ben benieuwd of het een
Midden-Nederlandse of Midden-Saksische leenwoord is. Het volgende is een
commentaar in het _Oxford English Dictionary_:

"In sense 1 [A clotted mass; coagulation] the word was evidently a phonetic
variant of CLOTTER, from CLOT (which had occas. the form _clut_).
Afterwards, influenced perh. by association with _cluster_, it was taken to
mean ‘an assemblage, crowd, medley’; and still later, perh. by association
with _clatter_, the notion of noise entered in, so as to give the sense of
mingled and confused noise (cf. EFris. _klöter_ a rattle, _klötern_ to
rattle)."

In het Nedersaksisch (Nederduits) -- niet alleen in de dialecten van
Oostfriesland -- hebben we _klötern_ ['klø:t at n] 'rammelen', 'ratelen' en
_klöter_ ['klø:t@] 'rammelaar', 'ratel', ook in het Missingsch (d.w.z.
Duitse dialecten op Nedersaksische substraten).  Zou dit de oorsprong van
"kleuter" kunnen zijn?

I believe the Dutch word _klotteren_ and its variants is related to English
"clutter".  The origin of "clutter" appears to be somewhat unclear.  It is
assumed to be related to "clod."  But I wonder if it is a Middle Dutch or
Middle Saxon loanword.  The following is a comment in the _Oxford English
Dictionary_:

"In sense 1 [A clotted mass; coagulation] the word was evidently a phonetic
variant of CLOTTER, from CLOT (which had occas. the form _clut_).
Afterwards, influenced perh. by association with _cluster_, it was taken to
mean ‘an assemblage, crowd, medley’; and still later, perh. by association
with _clatter_, the notion of noise entered in, so as to give the sense of
mingled and confused noise (cf. EFris. _klöter_ a rattle, _klötern_ to
rattle)."

In Lowlands Saxon (Low German) -- not only in the dialects of Eastern
Friesland -- we have _klötern_ ['klø:t at n] 'to rattle' and _klöter_ ['klø:t@]
'rattle', also in Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on LS substrates).
Might this be the origin of the Dutch word _kleuter_ 'toddler', 'preschool
child'?

Reinhard/Ron

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