LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.08 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: RVZSTERN at aol.com <RVZSTERN at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.07 (04) [D/E]

I always thought that Jews had a very significant impact and presence since
their many centuries of living in the Northern Countries. Antwerp especially
in
addition having been the port to leave for America for most  ( numbers in
the
millions) of the eastern European  Jews who were victims of progroms and
other anti-semitic horrors predating the second World War.

I would hope we would be careful not to call these words jargon in a culture
that may have been mostly Christian but where Jews have had a significant
influence ( and presence ) on the emergence of European civilization.

On the other hand as the result of the Holocaust, mainstream may not have
been exposed anymore to these terms.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Roeliena Van Zanten, Bainbridge Island WA 98110

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Roeliena:

> I would hope we would be careful not to call these words jargon in a
culture
> that may have been mostly Christian but where Jews have had a significant
> influence ( and presence ) on the emergence of European civilization.

I can only assume that you are referring to me saying the following:

> I would say that it *is* Dutch, specifically a Jewish Dutch sociolect (or
> better to say "a Judaic Dutch sociolect," to specify religion rather than
> genealogy).  Popularly it might be termed a "jargon."

Note that I used the term "sociolect" and put "jargon" in quotation marks.
Furthermore, note my use of "popularly."  I am sorry if despite this you
felt offended.

I was saying that in my opinion the language variety used is Dutch with
Judaism-specific loan terminology that to those unfamiliar with it makes
this variety seem like a "lingo," "jargon," or whatever, for want of a
better and less charged substitute for "sociolect."

This in itself is totally unrelated to the perception one might have of the
speakers of this variety, and it is unrelated to the speaker community's
history, contributions, image and so forth.  Dutch-speaking bakers, pidgeon
raisers, Turks, printers, stamp collectors, physicians, linguists, etc., all
have their own sociolects, i.e., varieties of Dutch with specialized
terminologies that are not understood by other Dutch speakers.  Many people
call these "jargon," rightly or wrongly.  I do not see anything special
about Dutch-speaking Jewish communities having such sociolects, just as I do
not see anything special about Dutch-speaking Moslems, Roman Catholics,
Calvinists, Mormons or Buddhists having their own sociolects.  I simply
cannot see what this has to do with a group's influence, contribution or
whatever.  As far as I am concerned, *all* ethnic and religious goups are
deserving of respect, none more and none less (being *groups* rather than
individuals), irrespective of how long they have been around and what their
history is.  Anyone who has been on Lowlands-L for some time and has paid
attention should know that this is consistent with my global view of
humanity, besides the fact that as a matter of personal choice I have
amassed considerable knowledge of and appreciation for Jewish history,
belief, cultures and languages.

Friendly regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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