LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.02.14 (06) [D/E/French]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Lisa Mays <frau_mays at yahoo.com>
Subject: flamland

Here is a short note to Frank concerning "flamland"...

In searching for information about the early homelands
aof the Dutch-German Mennonites, I was also interested
in the names for the different areas and the dialects
spoken there.  I checked the free encyclopeia
"Wikipedia" and found this answer:

Flemish
>>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Flemish is the collective term used for the Dutch
dialects spoken in Belgium. It is not a separate
language, there are some small differences in
vocabulary and pronunciation, but these are smaller
than between British and American English. It is often
used to distinguish the Dutch spoken in Flanders from
that of the Netherlands.

See also: West Flemish

Flemish is also an adjective referring to Flanders.

I don't know if this is helpful.

Lisa Mays

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.01.13 (04) [E]

> From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
> Subject:  Help needed
>
> Hi all
> I'm highly intrigued by a book called "dictionnaire français-flamand"
> published in 1587, apparently in Amsterdam: the word "flamand" in
> combination with the location and the date.
> In short: why the word "flamand" then and there??
> ¨[...], it would highly surprise me that they would call their
> language "Flemish", or "Vlaams", or an equivalent of it. I thought they'd
> rather use d-words as "Duuts", "Duytsch", "Nederduytsch", etc.

The French word "thiois" for "Diets" is hard to find in French dictionaries.
It was at least used in local French of the bishopric of Liege. "Flamand"
may
be a more recognisable term for French speakers.
The County of Flanders was after all a fief of the king of France till about
1524 (Treaty of Madrid). (except for the land of Aalst-Dendermonde and the
"4 Ambachten", together better known as "Rijks-Vlaanderen" as opposite to
"Kroon-Vlaanderen")

"Flemish" also occured as synonym for
common Dutch in the Southern Netherlands.

Pasting some excerpts from the WND CD-ROM:
-- quote
VLAAMSCH
[...]
II) Znw. — 1) In ruimeren zin. Het Nederlandsch zooals het in de Zuidelijke
Nederlanden, resp. België, wordt of werd gesproken, de volkstaal.
Vocabulare om te leerene Walsch, Spaensch ende Vlaemsch, Titel [1520].
Jan heeft vlaems gesproken, LUYTHON I ij rº b [1555].
Veel cooplien spreken Vlaemsch oft Nederlandsch om den handel diese op het
Nederland doen, D'HEERE, Br. Eil. 11 [1575].
Ghy sult nu in plaets van Vlaems, Spaens moeten leeren, DUYM, Ghedenckb. 2,
C rº [1606].
[...]
-- end quote

Two samples  from an other period, but it illustrates that the French used
"Flandre" (as opposité to "Comté de Flandre") for the totality of the
Southern Netherlands.

Map, undated, by G. Sanson (+ 1703) and A. Sanson (+ 1708)
Title of the map:
-- quote
Les Provinced des Pays-Bas Catholiques
vulgairement connues sous le nom de
FLANDRE
scauvoir
Les Duchés de Brabant, de Namur, de Luxrmbourg et p.tie de Gueldre
Les Comtés de Flandre, d'Artois, de Haynaut, de Namur
Le Marquisat du St Emire Anvers
et la Seigneurie de Malines [...]
-- end quote

Map (cupper Paris 1766) by Louis Charles Desnos.
Title of the map:
-- quote
Pays-Bas Catholiques
connus sous le nom de Flandre
divisés sous les traités
d'Utrecht, de Rastatt et d'Anvers. [..]
-- end quote
The territory covered includes "Haute Gueldre" in the North-East, the "Duché
de Luxembourg" in the South-East, the "Comté d'Artois" and the "Cambrésis"
in the South-West.

Clearly, for these maps, "Flandre" does not cover a language territory but
the Southern Netherlands in their historical totality.

Regards,

Roger

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