LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (03) [E]

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From: sam s claire <gamlhs at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (01) [E]

Ron, talking about replacing a standard term in one language with another
equivalent (more or less) of another is fascinating to me.  There is
something 'psycholinguistic,' i.e., indicative of a world view within a
language structure involved here.   If you like, I will expand a bit on
that note later.  Sam

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From: Gaidheal <gaidheal at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (01) [E]

Latha math, a Lowlanders;

Ron, don't forget that in some countries it is not the fatherland but the
motherland - Mother Russia, to be specific.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Ã’g mhic Sheumais

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (01) [E]

At 09:08 AM 02/21/04 -0800, Ron wrote:
>However, while English does have the word "mother tongue," as far as I
know,
>*"mother language" does not really exist.  "Native language" is established
>and is gender-neutral, so why not use it in the name of a special day?
>Perhaps "native" doesn't sit right with some, since some people might
>confuse it with "indigenous."

I suspect this has to do with language parallels, the term "mother tongue"
having Germanic roots, and "native language" coming from the Latin.  I also
agree that "mother tongue" is hardly used, and I think probably for the
reasons that Ron suspects - that it limits the concept.  Obviously,
children learn language from the persons in their home, regardless of
relationship.

>Likewise, "fatherland" is not really an English word, but it is sometimes
>used for foreign (alien) flavor, especially when dealing with German
>history, to stress, or dramatize, what people believe to be stereotypical
>Prussian paternalist power.

We also have the term "motherland", but that seems to be connected with
Russia as much as "fatherland" is connected with Germany, at least in my
mind.  I have a hard time imagining anyone connecting these terms with any
English speaking country, certainly not the United States or Canada.

>What is interesting to me here is that, while people like to go on _ad
>nauseam_ about English usurping the space of other languages especially in
>electronic communication, I have observed that English too is being
>influenced by other languages.  I believe this tends to happen where
>non-native English speakers make up English words on the basis of their own
>languages, and with spreading use, native English speakers eventually adopt
>some of these terms as neologisms.  Perhaps "mother language" is headed
that
>way.
>
>I can think of an example right away: "guest book" or "guestbook."  As far
>as I know, the "proper" English term is "visitors' book," but "guest book"
>or "guestbook" have come into general use lately, certainly on the Web.

I don't think so.  In fact, I find the term "visitors' book" to be strange,
and have only used and seen used the term "guest book" all my life, and I
know it was the only term used by my American parents, both of whom were
born before WWI.

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Sorry about the "mispostings" earlier, folks.  (Now, *there* is a neologism
waiting to be adopted, if it hasn't been already.)  Today I'm a bit "out of
sorts," to use an old-fashioned expression, and I forgot about the age-old
saying "stay away from from computers when you're not with it."  :)  I'm
sure I'll be forgiven. *blink* *blink*

Thanks for your responses, Sam, Uilleam and Ed, and welcome back, Sam!

Ed:

> I don't think so.  In fact, I find the term "visitors' book" to be
strange,
> and have only used and seen used the term "guest book" all my life, and I
> know it was the only term used by my American parents, both of whom were
> born before WWI.

Interesting!  I checked with a number of Americans from various parts of the
US, and all agreed that "guestbook" is new and "visitor's book" is
established.  (Interestingly, they all considered "guestbook" anywhere
between tolerable and acceptable because it makes sense at first encounter.)
Furthermore, I consulted a number of offline English dictionaries, and none
of them contained the term "guest book," "guest-book" or "guestbook," but
all of them gave "visitors' book."  Could it be that in your family a calque
(loan translation) from an immigrant language has been handed down?  I know
that there are such calque traditions that are specific to ethnic groups and
even to families.

Folks, on a non-Lowlandic note, thanks for reminding me of the Russian
reference to "mother" in the context of "Russia": "Mother Russia" (Мать
Россия _Mat' Rossija_, Матушка-Русь _Matuška-Rus'_, Матушка Россия _Matuška
Rossija_, etc.).  However, note that this is specific to referring to Russia
as one's native country and homeland, that otherwise in Russian and in other
Slavonic languages more general terms or paternally-based terms for
(anyone's) 'native country' tend to involve 'father' (Russian отец _otec_)
or 'stock', 'ethnic group', 'kin', 'genus', etc. (Russian род _rod_),
belonging to the semantic branch of "birth":

Russian: отечество _otečestvo_, отчизна _otčizna_, родина _rodina_
Polish: ojczyzna, but also _macierz_ with reference to _matka_ 'mother', to
'homeland'!
Czech: otčina
Upper Sorbian: wóčina
Lower Sorbian: woścojska
Serbo-Croatian: otadžbina
etc.

Furthermore, Russian uses a gender-neutral term for native language: родной
язык (rodnoj jazyk), thus pretty literally "native language."  But some
other Slavonic languages do use "mother" here; e.g., Czech _mateřština_,
_mateřský jazyk_, Upper Sorbian _maćeršćina_, _maćerna rěč_, Lower Sorbian
_maśeršćina_, _mamina rěc_, Serbo-Croatian _maternji jezik_.

Back to my actual point, reiterated!  What fascinates me is that in this new
climate of unprecedented, intensive (electronically faciliated) contact
between languages people like to bedevil English and its supposedly
destructive role, but what seems to be going on as well is a give-and-take
relationship, where English, too, is being influenced by other languages.
Calques made up by non-native speakers may become established, accepted by
native English speakers as well.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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