LL-L "Names" 2004.01.15 (01) [A/E/German/Sorbian]

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From: Gaidheal <gaidheal at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]

Feasgar math, a Lowlanders;

Criostair said:
Further to our discussion of the origin of "Serb" and "Serbian/Servian", we
should remember that the English form of "Hrvat" ("Croat") has changed also.
Although I am not entirely sure, the word was first borrowed as "Cravat" -
hence the neck tie term of that name, which was originally imported from the
Balkans. Unfortunately I cannot date this term, or when (indeed if) "Cravat"
was replaced by "Croat" in English.

I think that Cravat for neck tie comes from French cravate, tie. Though I'm
not sure and will
check if there's reason to believe otherwise. Perhaps cravate came from
Croatian Hrvat?

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Og mhic Sheumais

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From: Gaidheal <gaidheal at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]

Feasgar math, a Lowlanders;

Alright, I looked it up anyway. The word 'Croat' comes from New Latin
'Croata' which comes from
Croatian 'Hrvat'. 'Cravat' comes from French 'Cravate' which comes from
'Hrvat'. Now the question is: Why were ties named after Croatians?

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Og mhic Sheumais

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From: Niels Winther <niels.winther at lycos.nl>
Subject: LL-L: "Names"

Ron wrote:
> In other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects, too, you say _krabat(ter)_,
> and it denotes a person, usually a child, that is hard to manage, is
"wild."
> The plural is _krabatten_ ~ _krabaters_.

In the Scandinavian languages _krabat_ is used for an unmanageable person,
animal or even thing.
Originally meaning Croatian. The first attested use (ODS, SAOB) in the
beginning of the Thirty Years War, referring to a cavalry soldier of the
Croatian contingent of troops of the imperial army.

Regards
Niels

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]


Holger wrote (in a fascinating piece):
"But for the case of Hrvat / Hrvatska for a long time we knew the
term _Krabatten_ [kr at batn] which can also denote persons from this country."

This has clear resonances with Eng. _Cravat_. The phonetics are almost
identical and imply descent from the same mystery source (which I do not
believe to be the First World War pronunciation of _Hrvat_, incidentally) in
both cases. Some third interceding language is influencing proceedings. If
the English and E F Low Saxon terms came directly from Serbo-Croat _Hrvat_
we would expect something the end result in both languages to be something
similar Magyar _Horvát_ with the vowel placed after a [h] sound rather than
a [k] - indeed when most English speakers attempt to pronounce _Hrvat_ they
say [h3:''vat] ("Hervat"). Placing the first vowel between the /r/ and /v/
instead of before the /r/ is unusual for Eng. phonetics - for example, Serb.
_Srb_ was not borrowed into Eng. as *Srab even though the same
consonant-Slavic /r/-consonant cluster is involved.

So: which was the interceding language that gave _Cravat_ and _Krabat_ to
English and Low Saxon respectively? The phonetics state that it can't be
Magyar or German, even though the Austro-Hungarian Empire would have been
the main medium of contact between the Serbo-Croat speaking peoples and
western Europe. What is _Croat_ in Turkish, Russian and Italian?

Criostóir.

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:
"I am beginning to wonder if the _hrvati_ in Eastern Friesland where
originally given this as a nickname (assumedly with a touch of xenophobic
disdain) because _hrvat_ sounds a bit like the already existing word
_krabat_."

A fair assumption, but why would the Saxon speakers of Eastern Friesland
single out the Croats for special ridicule? Nicknames - xenophobic or not -
rarely echo the original ethnonym, and often derive from personal names and
the like: Yank for American, Paddy for Irishman, Jock for a Scotsman, Dago
for a Mediterreanean (< Diego); pom for an Englishman, Frog for a Frenchman
(the list is endless and usually deeply offensive, so I will stop here with
apologies to those nationalities already mentioned).

A good test might be to see if other nationalities imprisoned in POW camps
in Eastern Friesland received the same linguistic treatment. If they did
not, and _krabat_ is the only example, then I think it safe to presume that
the term derives from a borrowing, rather than the adaptation of an existing
Low Saxon pejorative.

Criostóir.

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:
"I have always assumed that it was a variant of _klabauter_, which also
occurs as _krabauter_, with the same meaning, except when it is (implied)
_Klabauterman_ ~ _Krabauterman_ ~ _Krabaterman_, a mischieveous maritime
goblin that sometimes heralds a ship's doom.  (Aren't there related words in
Dutch and Afrikaans?)"

When I was visiting Amsterdam some 30+ years ago, there was a group called
the Oranje Vrij Staat.  It was a group of anarchists (not the bomb throwing
kind) who broke into vacant houses and set up occupancy, among other things.
I don't think they started the trend of "krakenhuizen" but they did keep it
going.  I happened upon this group, and was granted permission to live in
one of their houses on Prisengracht.  This group published a newspaper
called the Kabouter Krant.  I was told at the time that a kabouter was a
gnome or elf that is sort of a merry prankster.  Perhaps, its derivation is
from krabauter or klabauter.
Mark Brooks

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From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (05) [E]

As an aside to the discussion of the b/v variation in the spelling of
Serbia/Servia, I just thought I'd note that the city of Sevastopol in the
Crimea was formerly spelled Sebastopol in English.

Kevin Caldwell
kcaldwell31 at comcast.net

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.01.14 (07) [E]


Goeiedag almal,
Ek het nognooit vantevore gepos nie, so wees geduldig as ek dit heeltmal
verkeerd doen!

R.F Hahn wrote:
"In other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects, too, you say _krabat(ter)_,
and it denotes a person, usually a child, that is hard to manage, is "wild."
The plural is _krabatten_ ~ _krabaters_. I have always assumed that it was
a variant of _klabauter_, which also occurs as _krabauter_, with the same
meaning, except when it is (implied) _Klabauterman_ ~ _Krabauterman_ ~
_Krabaterman_, a mischieveous maritime goblin that sometimes heralds a
ship's doom. (Aren't there related words in Dutch and Afrikaans?)

I am beginning to wonder if the _hrvati_ in Eastern Friesland where
originally given this as a nickname (assumedly with a touch of xenophobic
disdain) because _hrvat_ sounds a bit like the already existing word
_krabat_."


I thought I'd say that in Afrikaans "Kabouter" means gnome/dwarf. The word
for dwarf is "dwerg", but I believe most people use "kabouter" and "dwerg"
interchangeably (where I come from, anyway!) There used to be a much beloved
children's show called "Dawie die kabouter" which I believe was a Dutch
import. It didn't have any maritime connection though.

In Afrikaans a necktie is a "das" although I know that the archaic word is
"kravat". I unfortunately have no idea how we say Croatia - although I'd
guess "Kroatië". For Serbia we say Serbië.

Vriendelike groete

Liza

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

So this "Names" thing really gets people's juices flowing, I see ...  Thanks
for all the responses.

Liza:

> Goeiedag almal,
> Ek het nognooit vantevore gepos nie, so wees geduldig as ek dit heeltmal
> verkeerd doen!

Hartlik welkom, Liza!  Dis lekker om van jou te hoor. En baie dankie vir die
verduideliking ten opsigte van "kabouter".

Ken Afrikaans-talige (en ook Nederlands-talige) mense ook die verhaal van
die gnoompie "kabouter(man)" wat in skippe spook?  Of is dit buite die
Nedersaksies-talige streek onbekend?

Uilleam:

> Alright, I looked it up anyway. The word 'Croat' comes from New Latin
'Croata'
> which comes from Croatian 'Hrvat'. 'Cravat' comes from French 'Cravate'
> which comes from 'Hrvat'. Now the question is: Why were ties named after
Croatians?

I assume that people found the elaborately tied Croatian folk costume
scarves impressive, perhaps during the 17th century when men's jabots became
all the rage (until they evolved into today's tie at the end of the 19th
century).  Of course there are "gezillions" of Croat folk costumes and their
historical permutations.

Críostóir:

> A fair assumption, but why would the Saxon speakers of Eastern Friesland
> single out the Croats for special ridicule? Nicknames - xenophobic or
not -
> rarely echo the original ethnonym, and often derive from personal names
and
> the like: Yank for American, Paddy for Irishman, Jock for a Scotsman, Dago
> for a Mediterreanean (< Diego); pom for an Englishman, Frog for a
Frenchman
> (the list is endless and usually deeply offensive, so I will stop here
with
> apologies to those nationalities already mentioned).

A good question.  I am not sure if Croats were singled out or if this
_Hrvat_ > _Krabat_ thing became generalized to mean something like "wog" as
used in Britain, Australia, etc.  Perhaps Holger and others could tell us
this.

By the way, I mention pejorative names and labels very hesitantly, as those
of you who know me probably understand.  However, I think I am justified in
assuming that no harm is done by doing so in this forum, that all of us here
are open-minded and "adult" enough to deal with such aspects without
suspecting each other of actually subscribing to the types of mindsets that
created such terminologies.  After all, we try to take a more or less
serious look at history, culture and language, and we know that not all
aspects are positive and cheery.

Niels:

> In the Scandinavian languages _krabat_ is used for an unmanageable person,
> animal or even thing.
> Originally meaning Croatian. The first attested use (ODS, SAOB) in the
beginning
> of the Thirty Years War, referring to a cavalry soldier of the Croatian
contingent
> of troops of the imperial army.

Ah! Niels to the rescue!  Thanks, bud!  Any idea which language started
this?

What is also very interesting is that the name Krabat is that of a Sorbian
(thus West Slavic) fictional character, a 14-year-old boy who ends up
learning black magic without initially being aware of it.  I assume that the
name is linked with what we are talking about here.  The novel/play _Krabat_
is a fascinating story really, and it became rather well-known in German
translation.

However, there is also a Sorbian (Lusatian) folk myth figure named Krabat
who is a magical gnome.  His name, too, goes back to "Croat," and this makes
me wonder if this is not the origin of this whole thing.

"Stawizniski pozadk powěsćow a bajow wo Krabaće je slědowacy: Kurwjerch
Awgust I. (Awgust Sylny) bě, nawróćiwši so z bitwy přećiwo Turkam w lěće
1696, jěcharskeho obrista z mjenom Johann Schadowitz sobu přiwjedł. Jemu bě
za wosebite zasłužby – pječa bě Awgusta Sylneho před turkowskim zajećom
wuchował – kubło we Wulkich Ždźarach darił. Z dalokeje Chorwatskeje
pochadźacecho wyška, kotryž 29. meje lěta 1704 zemrěł, mějachu w ludźe wěsće
dla cuzeju pochada a rěče, dla jeho wonkowneho a wšelakich swojoraznosćow za
kuzłarja a mjenowachu jeho Krabat."
http://www.hoyerswerda.de/tourismus/tag_krabat_sorb.htm

"Geschichtlicher Hintergrund aller Sagen und Legenden um Krabat ist, dass
Kurfürst Friedrich August I. (August der Starke) bei seiner Rückkehr aus
einem Feldzug gegen die Türken im Jahr 1696 einen Reiterobristen namens
Johann Schadowitz in seinem Gefolge mitbrachte und diesem wegen seiner
Verdienste - er soll August den Starken vor der Gefangennahme durch die
Türken bewahrt haben - das Gut Groß Särchen vor den Toren der Stadt
Hoyerswerda schenkte. Der aus dem fernen Kroatien stammende Oberst, der
hochbetagt am 29. Mai 1704 starb, wurde im Volksmund sicher wegen seiner
fremden Herkunft und Sprache, seines Aussehens und seiner Eigenarten als
Zauberer angesehen und als "Krabat" bezeichnet."
(http://www.hoyerswerda.de/tourismus/tag_toukrabat.htm)

My translation:
"The historical background of all Krabat myths and legends is the following.
Upon his return from a campaign against the Turks in 1696, Elector Friedrich
August I ("August the Strong") had in his equipage a cavalry colonel by the
name of Johann Schadowitz. He paid this colonel for his meritorious service
by bestowing upon him the estate Wulke Zdźary/Groß Särchen just outside
Wojerecy/Hoyerswerda. Among ordinary folk, this colonel of Croatian origin,
who died at a very old age on May 29, 1704, appears to have been considered
a magician because of his ability and looks, and he came to be referred to
as "Krabat."

There's always stuff to think about and to remember that all cultures and
people are linked with each other.

Na zasejwizenje!
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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