LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.18 (01) [E]

Sun Jan 18 18:52:30 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology (vane)

<I wrote:
<> I found the Old Saxon word for the assumedly same thing: _halsfano_.
<> (_Hals_ is 'neck', and _fano_ 'rag', 'cloth' is a cognate of modern
<_vaan_,
<> German _Fahne_, 'flag'.)
<I should have translated the latter more accurately as 'banner', since
<'flag' would be _vlag(ge)_ and _Flagge_ respectively.
<As for this _vaan_/_Fahne_, and also Dutch _vaan_, since no one else has
<done the "honors," I will do so.
<This Old Saxon _fano_ appears to correspond to Old English _fana_ (as well
<as Old German _fano_, Old Norse _fani_ and Gothic _fana_, from Old Germanic
<*_fanon_). Its Modern English survival is "vane," nowadays mostly appearing
<in "weathervane," which apparently began as a piece of cloth.
<Why Modern English "vane" instead of expected *"fane"? My hypothesis is
<that at one point in time the word only occurred as the second part of noun
<compounds and later came to be "reconstructed" as an independent word. In
<Old English, what is written <f> is pronounced [v] when it appears between
<two vowels (and also between a sonorant and a vowel, I believe).
<Furthermore, I hypothesize that the original meaning of Germanic *_fanon_
<was 'long piece of cloth'. This goes nicely not only with the meaning
<'banner' and Old Saxon _halsfano_ 'neckscarf', but also with Modern English
<_vane_ having another meaning: 'blade (of a windmill)' (originally a long
<piece of cloth in a frame, in which form it survives in Spain and other
<South European countries). Furthermore, there is Scots _vane_, _veyne_,
<vein_, etc., 'stripe of a different color on a garment', 'long ornamental
<piece of different-color fabric on a garment'. (Do you have similar things
<in Northumbrian, Glenn?) Or was _vane_ "reinstated" in Middle English as a
<loanword from Flemish (brought in with Flemish weaver immigrants), natively
<written <vane> and accordingly "mispronounced" in English?
>
<What also comes to mind is the occasional use of _Fahne_ in German (usually
<alte Fahne_ with "old") to denote what in English is _old rag_ and in
<Yiddish is _(alte) shmate_ ("(old) rag") in reference to an old or inferior
<(women's) dress. I had always wondered about that German expression. Now I
<realize that it comes from the old meaning "(long) piece of cloth (= rag)"
<rather than from the meaning "banner."

<Any comments?
<Reinhard/Ron

Yes, Ron! Some comments, indeed!

Dear Ron and Lowlanders,

The word "vane" must have been influenced by the Flemish/Dutch "vaandel",
and is probably also related to the French or Norman word "fanion", which
refers to a long piece of cloth used as a flag (R. de Moiliens, 12th.
century), and coming from "fanon" (whalebone or baleen plate), which itself
seems to originate in "*fano", meaning long piece of cloth. Source: Nouveau
Dictionnaire Etymologique, Dauzat, Dubois & Mitterand (Larousse).

But let's keep searching high and low...

Friendly yours,
Jean-Luc Detilleux

----------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.17 (02) [E]

> I wrote:
>
> > I found the Old Saxon word for the assumedly same thing: _halsfano_.
> > (_Hals_ is 'neck', and _fano_ 'rag', 'cloth' is a cognate of modern
> _vaan_,
> > German _Fahne_, 'flag'.)
>
> I should have translated the latter more accurately as 'banner', since
> 'flag' would be _vlag(ge)_ and _Flagge_ respectively.
>
> As for this _vaan_/_Fahne_, and also Dutch _vaan_, since no one else has
> done the "honors," I will do so.
>
Also West Frisian _fane_.

> This Old Saxon _fano_ appears to correspond to Old English _fana_ (as well
My Etymological dictionaries give _fona_ in both Old english and Old
Frisian.
This rounding of a before n is regular in both languages.
Eastern Frisian preserves it (West Frisian seems to have derounded it again)
and so Saterlandic Frisian has
_Fone_.
> as Old German _fano_, Old Norse _fani_ and Gothic _fana_, from Old
Germanic
> *_fanon_).  Its Modern English survival is "vane," nowadays mostly
appearing
> in "weathervane," which apparently began as a piece of cloth.
>
Frank, Van Wijk, van Haeringen reconstruct *_fanan_. The meaning seems to be
"doek"
(cloth, piece of cloth) in all these varieties. In Latin we have the cognate
_pannus_  "lap" (rag), both
from the stem "(s)pen" "vlechten" (to braid, plait), which is related to
Germanic words that gave
_spinnen_ (Wfr spinne etc) and which have a lot of cognates across
Indo-European languages.

> Why Modern English "vane" instead of expected *"fane"?  My hypothesis is
> that at one point in time the word only occurred as the second part of
noun
> compounds and later came to be "reconstructed" as an independent word.  In
> Old English, what is written <f> is pronounced [v] when it appears between
> two vowels (and also between a sonorant and a vowel, I believe).
>
Or maybe of Southwestern origin, like "vixen" ?

> Furthermore, I hypothesize that the original meaning of Germanic *_fanon_
> was 'long piece of cloth'.  This goes nicely not only with the meaning
> 'banner' and Old Saxon _halsfano_ 'neckscarf', but also with Modern
English
> _vane_ having another meaning: 'blade (of a windmill)' (originally a long
> piece of cloth in a frame, in which form it survives in Spain and other
> South European countries).  Furthermore, there is Scots _vane_, _veyne_,
> _vein_, etc., 'stripe of a different color on a garment', 'long ornamental
> piece of different-color fabric on a garment'.  (Do you have similar
things
> in Northumbrian, Glenn?)  Or was _vane_ "reinstated" in Middle English as
a
> loanword from Flemish (brought in with Flemish weaver immigrants),
natively
> written <vane> and accordingly "mispronounced" in English?
>
> What also comes to mind is the occasional use of _Fahne_ in German
(usually
> _alte Fahne_ with "old") to denote what in English is _old rag_ and in
> Yiddish is _(alte) shmate_ ("(old) rag") in reference to an old or
inferior
> (women's) dress.  I had always wondered about that German expression.  Now
I
> realize that it comes from the old meaning "(long) piece of cloth (= rag)"
> rather than from the meaning "banner."
>
> Any comments?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Mei freonlike groetenis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.17 (02) [E]

Reinhard/Ron,

There is also a distinct possibility of <vane> deriving from
south-western or south-eastern forms. Initial /f/ and /s/ were
frequently, if not regularly voiced in Middle English in the West
Country as well as in Middle Kentish. Compare other Standard English
forms such as <vixen> which is the exact cognate of Standard German
<Füchsin>. Here the voiced /v/ indicates that it is a south western
form. The umlaut (from Old English <fyxen>) shows that a Flemish loan is
unlikely here.

Of course there is also the possibility you mentioned of its being a
Flemish loan word. I do not believe it likely that the voiced /v/
derives from a compound the first element of which would be a vowel.

Dan

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.17 (02) [E]

from:
http://www.etymonline.com/

V - In M.E., -u- and -v- were used interchangeably, though with a
preference for v- as the initial letter (vnder, vain, etc.) and -u-
elsewhere (full, euer, etc.). The distinction into consonant and vowel
identities was established in Eng. by 1630, under influence of
continental printers, but into 19c. some dictionaries and other
catalogues continued to list -u- and -v- words as a single series. No
native Anglo-Saxon words begin in v- except those (vane, vat, vixen)
altered by the southwestern England habit of replacing initial f- with
v- (and initial s- with z-). Confusion of -v- and -w- was also a
characteristic of 16c. Cockney accents.

vane - c.1395, southern England alteration of fane (see V), from O.E.
fana "flag, weather-cock," from P.Gmc. *fanon.

vat - c.1200, southern variant of O.E. fæt "container, vat," from P.Gmc.
*fatan.

vixen - O.E. *fyxen (implied in adj. fyxan), fem. of fox (see fox).
Solitary English survival of the Germanic feminine suffix -en, -in (cf.
O.E. gyden "goddess;" mynecen "nun," from munuc "monk;" wlyfen
"she-wolf"). The figurative sense is in Shakespeare. The spelling shift
from -f- to -v- began late 1500s (see V).

David Barrow

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.17 (02) [E]

In dutch it is still present in the word "vaandel". Meaning 'Banner'.
We as Westflemish, we sometimes use it in a funny expression as
"someone walking in his "vane"" , means someone who's walking in his
shirt with nothing underneath (no trousers!).....".
But even this word seems to die out. My mother uses this every now and
then, but I know few people who stll know the word.

denis dujardin
kortrijk
westflanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks very much for the very convincing input above, everyone.  Nice one!

David:

> vat - c.1200, southern variant of O.E. fæt "container, vat," from P.Gmc.
> *fatan.

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vat_ (<Fatt>), German _Fass_ 'barrel', 'vat'

Jean-Luc:

> The word "vane" must have been influenced by the Flemish/Dutch "vaandel",
> and is probably also related to the French or Norman word "fanion", which
> refers to a long piece of cloth used as a flag (R. de Moiliens, 12th.
century),
> and coming from "fanon" (whalebone or baleen plate), which itself seems to
> originate in "*fano", meaning long piece of cloth. Source: Nouveau
> Dictionnaire Etymologique, Dauzat, Dubois & Mitterand (Larousse).

Given all the Germanic cognates, might we assume that it started as a Norman
(Scandinavian Germanic) loan in French>

Denis:

> We as Westflemish, we sometimes use it in a funny expression as
> "someone walking in his "vane"" , means someone who's walking in his
> shirt with nothing underneath (no trousers!).....".
> But even this word seems to die out. My mother uses this every now and
> then, but I know few people who stll know the word.

Talking about idioms, if you say that someone walks with or has a _Fahne_
('banner', 'flag') in German it means that he or she has alcohol on his or
her breath ...  Funny things, idiomatic expressions, aren't they?

Thanks again.

Regards, and a good Martin Luther King Day in the U.S. tomorrow!

Reinhard/Ron

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