LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.10 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

Dear All,

I'm not sure whether the way I'm taking this thread is within the scope
of LL-L: the remit there seems to imply that it's the _real_ languages
and cultures of the Lowlands that are to be discussed.  However, I don't
think that anyone would argue that Tolkien, born in Bloemfontain,
ancestrally from the West Midlands and Germany, is a Lowlands Author.
His invented languages Quenya and Sindarin (there is no 'Elvish' any
more than there is 'Germanic' or 'Semitic') are largely inspired by
Welsh and Finnish, so not particularly 'Lowlands'.

Mark's comment that
> He most likely never used the 'Elvish' or 'Middle Earth' mode
>outside of those writings dedicated to them; not even 'Smith of Wootton
>Major'.
>
I wonder what he means by 'mode'.  If he means 'language', then he's
right, Sindarin and Quenya are limited to Middle Earth - the only
exception I can think is his Valedictory Lecture, which concludes with a
short piece of poetry which he dismisses as 'Nonsense', just as (with
the same humorous and ironic intent) that he has just dismissed some old
English poetry as 'language'.

Best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Name the language

Erm, gender? What's that?

> Far be it from me to nitpick, especially in the case of you
gender-deprived,
> albeit learned Afrikaans-speaking lot, but that would be _Von de
> Machandelbloom_ (my spelling _Von dey machandel-bloum_) "(About) The
Juniper
> Flower/Blossom" (feminine), rather than the original _Von dem
Machandelboom_
> (my spelling _Von dem machandel-boum_) "(About) The Juniper Tree"
> (masculine).

> What a difference a slip of the key can make!

I type it as I read it, from the book, 'TREE AND LEAF Including the poem
'Mythopoeia': JRR Tolkien Unwin Paperbacks 2nd Edition 1988. P32: "(Von dem
Machandelbloom)"

Now I, trying to write convincing High German, & since the word for juniper
I know is 'machholder" would rather have written 'Von dem Machholderbaum'
and preferably, by contraction, 'Vom Machholderbaum.' That, Ron, is why I
decided it wasn't Standard High German. Eh?

> Consequently, _machandel_ 'juniper' is pronounced _machannel_ (or
_machanl_)
> in most dialects of today, and in my spelling it's all right to write it
> _machannel_.

> Yep!  Goes to show you just how similar some of those Lowlands varieties
can
> be to each other, especially if you write them more alike.  {Hint, hint,
> blink, blink ...}

Hoor, Hoor!

> A LS speaker has no problem understanding Afrikaans _twee duisend jaar_,
> certainly not in writing.

Groete en Komplimente

Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Haai, Mark!

> I type it as I read it, from the book, 'TREE AND LEAF Including the poem
> 'Mythopoeia': JRR Tolkien Unwin Paperbacks 2nd Edition 1988. P32: "(Von
dem
> Machandelbloom)"

Oops!  So then it was the author's error.  I can assure you that it is _Von
dem Machandelboom_ as firmly as that it is _twe dusend Johr_ (rather than
_twe tusend Johr_).

> Now I, trying to write convincing High German, & since the word for
juniper
> I know is 'machholder" would rather have written 'Von dem Machholderbaum'
> and preferably, by contraction, 'Vom Machholderbaum.' That, Ron, is why I
> decided it wasn't Standard High German. Eh?

Oops again!  Perhaps your Afrikaans- and German-influenced North German
(Saxon) roots are showing.  The German word is _Wacholder_ with a "v" sound,
while the Saxon one is _Machandel_.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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