LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.10 (03) [A/E/F]

Sat Jul 10 17:08:22 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Dear Gavin,

LL-L "Etymology"

> The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
> with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques)

You have me there, only I would rather say, on behalf of Afrikaans at least,
'scorn' of (unnecessary Latinate constructions) In Afrikaans, native
elements, is the way to go.

Same to yourself,
Mark
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Dear Mark,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Re: on end

> I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
For
> example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
> several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
> of "consecutively."

What tickles me is the 'on' which I would like to read as 'un-' or as in
Afrikaans, 'on-'

Yrs,
Mark

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]

Beste Stella en Henno

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

> To get to the word "terp": this actually doesn't mean "hill" or
"artificial
> mount" originally, although
> it has come to mean this in Dutch, eg.
> The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
of
> a Germanic
> stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
> etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
> village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
> we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
> In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
> eg.) in the village meaning.

 Henno & Ron, this kind of stuff is meat & drink to me: Many thanks!

Groete,
Mark

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]

Dear David

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> That should say my Old English is pretty basic.

Not as basic as mine, & I like what you do.

Yrs, Mark

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (04) [E]

Dear David & Ron,

LL-L "Etymology"

> I know close to zero Afrikaans, which version did you translate it from?
> I'm trying to work out which of the words means 'hewn down'  weggekap?

Spot on! 'weg' = 'away' & gekap = 'chopped'.
I used 'weg' rather than 'af' or 'neer' = 'down' or 'uit' = 'out' in order
to scan - sorry alliterate - with the first half-line.

I had only the English to work from, & snippets from my studies.
'ANGLO-SAXON POETRY'  Selected & Translated by Prof. R K Gordon. 'The Dream
of the Rood', a prose translation. I prefer to work with such. One can lose
so much in accuracy for the sake of making good verse.

> Here's my wild stab at an Old Saxon translation:
>
> Hêliandes bôm (= krûci)
> and that ik gihôrde that it rêthion
> afhêbbade thâr word gisprêkan holte sâligste
> that uuas for gêrta – ik farsinnare noh that
> that ik uuas âhauwon fan des holtes (~ uualdes) rand (~ and ~ sôm)

Ron, die taal laat my hare opstaan!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Good one, as usual, Henno!
>
> > The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
> of
> > a Germanic
> > stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> > English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as
well?)
> > etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas
a
> > village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> > centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West
Frisian
> > we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> > "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
>
> In most Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of the North it's _dörp_,
> though some have _dorp_.

Grappich om te sjen dat hjir ek de foarm mei omlûd it wûn hat. My tinkt, dy
foarm komt út it meartal wei, lykas it Dútsk ek Dorf - Dörfer hat, of faaks
ek it oare bûgde foarmen (*thurpis as genityf, miskjin). Yn it Aldfrysk
waard in [ö] of [ü] ûntrûne ta [E] (Aldeilânnoardfrysk feroare de earste yn
[E] mar de twadde yn [i]; dit is ien fan 'e redenen om ta in âlde skieding
yn oarsprong tusken de eilannen en de fêstewâl te kommen), en dy is yn it
Westerlauwersk Frysk [e] bleaun of rutsen ta [E:]  ("rêst" = Ingelsk "rest"
= Ndl "rust", "rêch" komt oerien mei Ingelsk "ridge", en it Nederlânske
"rug", mar soms hat it Frysk ek in [I], as yn "mich" = Ing."midge" = Ndl.
"mug" bygelyks. [It Ingelsk hat yn dizze wurden ek mear palatalisearre as it
Frysk]. Dizze ûntrûning sit miskjin ek yn it al neamde "hil" (Siuwsk, tocht
my, dôchs?), dêr't ek de foarm "hel" yn Fryske plaknammen foarkomt ("de
reade hel" bygelyks), en ek yn de Noard-Hollânske plaknamme "Den Helder" (in
meartal: "de heuvels" ("den" út bûgde foarmen), dit plak leit op hege dunen,
oarspronklik). Ek it Ingelsk "hill" soe dan in ûntrûne foarm hawwe. Dit fynt
ek stipe yn it etymologysk wurdboek, dat "hill" (< "hyll") as besibbe sjocht
mei Latyn "collis" < *kolnis en útgiet fan it stam [*hulni] yn it Germaansk,
dêr't ek Middelnederlânsk "hulle" fan komt. It wurd "heuvel" (yn it
Westerlauwerk Frysk in lienwurd) hat wer in oare oarsprong, dy't mei in
Indoeuropeeske stam fan "bûge" te krijen hat. By hel/hill/hil soene ek
Gryksk "kolo:nos" (heuvel) en Aldslavyske en Keltyske foarmen hearre.
[knip]
>
> > In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer
resp.
> > eg.) in the village meaning.
>
> th (þ) > North Frisian /s/

Allinnich yn it Amrumer Noardfrysk! Mar de oare dialekten hawwe allegearre
in t-, lykas de measte Skandinaafske talen ek. Dit jildt ek foar it
Westerlauwersk en it Sealter Frysk. Allinnich yn âlder Söl'ring en Fering
hearde je in ferskil tusken "gewoane" t en t út [þ], mar dat is no (hast)
útstoarn. It Wangereager Frysk (no ek "dea") hie noch in echt [þ]-lûd, mar
dat wie ek tige behâldend!

> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (boppe):

> Grappich om te sjen dat hjir ek de foarm mei omlûd it wûn hat. My tinkt,
dy
> foarm komt út it meartal wei, lykas it Dútsk ek Dorf - Dörfer hat, of
faaks
> ek it oare bûgde foarmen (*thurpis as genityf, miskjin).

Ja, wurklik grappich.  Miskijn fan *_thorpo_ > *_thorpe_, lyk as Ingelsk
_thorp_ ~ _thorpe_?

Mar is _terp_ net ek mei omlûd!

Mark (above):

> Ron, die taal laat my hare opstaan!

Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't tell me
Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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