LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.26 (01) [E/S]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]

>From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
>Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing
you
>said (quoted below) threw me:
>
>>From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
>>Subject: "Levity" [E]
>>
>>An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
>>"Drink
>>to me only":
>>
>>"If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
>>"I would not change for thine."
>>
>>Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
>>clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
>>what was actually said.
>
>I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
>Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
>for your nectar (which I already have).
>
>That said, I can think of a few other examples:
>
>>I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
>>English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
>>it
>>goes on that I don't notice!
>>
>>Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
>>for example, in Scots:
>>
>>"lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
>>"listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
>>"herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
>>"dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>>
>>and so on.
>>
>>Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
>>hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.
>
>I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to
be
>late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
>I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
>stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
>everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
>still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
>Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).
>
>Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)
>
How about all those 'I don't think' expressions

'I don't think she knows'  rather than 'I think she doesn't know'

we negate the 'thinking' which we are quite obviously doing instead of
the 'knowing'

David Barrow

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language structure" [E]

>
> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
> > From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> > Subject: "Levity" [E]
> >
> > "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> > "I would not change for thine."
> >
> I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
> Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
> for your nectar (which I already have).

I see what you mean. Is the problem here really ambiguity? You could assume
that  he has her er... nectar?? or you could assume from the first line that
he's able to sup Jove's and... what a load of rubbish it is really, isn't
it?!!

Of course it does illustrate that you can get away with a lot of ambiguity
in language itself and depend on the reader's/listener's common sense to
interpret it as intended.

> I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to
be
> late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
> I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
> stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
> everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
> still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
> Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
heels?).

An interesting phrase in Scots is "It's a maiter" meaning "It's no matter".
According to the SND this is because "It's a maiter" is a sawn-off version
of "It's a matter of no importance".

I think sometimes when we see a writer with a real "ear" for the way people
speak we can really see how illogical language can be. Take David Rorie's
Poem "The Picnic", for example:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

You an your fit!
They're a perfeck scunner-
Baith the twa o them,
Ay, an haes been ever sin I kent ye.
A daecent wumman canna get moved at her ain chimblay-cheek,
An sma' won'er!
Hoo aften hae I telt ye I couldna get anent ye
An you aye lollopin' thae dagont feet o yours on the fender?
I whiles wish ye haed widden legs,
They wadna be sae tender
An they wad match your heid better-
Ay, wad they, fegs,
An hae saved ye happin' aboot the noo
Like a craw wi a sair inside.
Sit doon, man!  See,
A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-
Here's your cuppie o tea!

Oho!  Ye're no gaun to bide?
Ye've haed a' the tea ye're wantin'?
An ye're no seekin' ony mair o my clatter?
Weel, awa an tak a bit paidle til yersel,
Gin ye maun be gallivantin'
Try the watter.
The sea 'ull mibbie cool your temper
An your taes as weel.

But mind ye this o't!
I've taen your meesure,
My bonny man, aince an for a',
An this is the hin'most time
I'm oot for a day's plaesur
Wi you - ay is it!
For I'll stan' nae mair o your jaw!
Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

Comments:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!

 - "language" is often used to mean "swearing".

Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell

 - she means the tale _won't_ be "bonny".

An you a jined member o the Kirk!

 - I wouldn't like to think he was a falling-apart member of the church!

Keep me!

 - just one of those things people say.

Ye hae a guid neck!

 - the word "good" isn't always a compliment.

They're a perfeck scunner-

 - "perfect" used merely as an intensifier.

Ay, wad they, fegs,

 - she means "ay, they wad" but she mimics the syntax of his question.

A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-

 - "full", but it means "drunk".

My bonny man

 - again, "bonny" just doesn't mean that the way she uses it.

Of course some of this is irony and it's not unusual for speakers or writers
to say the opposite of what they mean and listeners or readers are expected
to understand the intended meaning anyway.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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