LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.26 (03) [E]

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Onderwerp: Language structure
Van: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>

>I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you
> to be late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
>I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually
> with stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even
> though everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much
> at all, it still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
>Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
> heels?).
>
>Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)
>
>


How about all those 'I don't think' expressions

'I don't think she knows'  rather than 'I think she doesn't know'

we negate the 'thinking' which we are quite obviously doing instead of
the 'knowing'

David Barrow


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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language structure" [E]

> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
> > From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> > Subject: "Levity" [E]
> >
> > "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> > "I would not change for thine."
> >
> I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
> Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in
> exchange for your nectar (which I already have).

I see what you mean. Is the problem here really ambiguity? You could
assume that  he has her er... nectar?? or you could assume from the
first line that he's able to sup Jove's and... what a load of rubbish it
is really, isn't it?!!

Of course it does illustrate that you can get away with a lot of
ambiguity in language itself and depend on the reader's/listener's
common sense to interpret it as intended.

> I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you
> to be late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
> I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually
> with stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even
> though everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much
> at all, it still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
> Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
> heels?).

An interesting phrase in Scots is "It's a maiter" meaning "It's no
matter". According to the SND this is because "It's a maiter" is a
sawn-off version of "It's a matter of no importance".

I think sometimes when we see a writer with a real "ear" for the way
people speak we can really see how illogical language can be. Take David
Rorie's Poem "The Picnic", for example:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

You an your fit!
They're a perfeck scunner-
Baith the twa o them,
Ay, an haes been ever sin I kent ye.
A daecent wumman canna get moved at her ain chimblay-cheek,
An sma' won'er!
Hoo aften hae I telt ye I couldna get anent ye
An you aye lollopin' thae dagont feet o yours on the fender?
I whiles wish ye haed widden legs,
They wadna be sae tender
An they wad match your heid better-
Ay, wad they, fegs,
An hae saved ye happin' aboot the noo
Like a craw wi a sair inside.
Sit doon, man!  See,
A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-
Here's your cuppie o tea!

Oho!  Ye're no gaun to bide?
Ye've haed a' the tea ye're wantin'?
An ye're no seekin' ony mair o my clatter?
Weel, awa an tak a bit paidle til yersel,
Gin ye maun be gallivantin'
Try the watter.
The sea 'ull mibbie cool your temper
An your taes as weel.

But mind ye this o't!
I've taen your meesure,
My bonny man, aince an for a',
An this is the hin'most time
I'm oot for a day's plaesur
Wi you - ay is it!
For I'll stan' nae mair o your jaw!
Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

Comments:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!

 - "language" is often used to mean "swearing".

Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell

 - she means the tale _won't_ be "bonny".

An you a jined member o the Kirk!

 - I wouldn't like to think he was a falling-apart member of the church!

Keep me!

 - just one of those things people say.

Ye hae a guid neck!

 - the word "good" isn't always a compliment.

They're a perfeck scunner-

 - "perfect" used merely as an intensifier.

Ay, wad they, fegs,

 - she means "ay, they wad" but she mimics the syntax of his question.

A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-

 - "full", but it means "drunk".

My bonny man

 - again, "bonny" just doesn't mean that the way she uses it.

Of course some of this is irony and it's not unusual for speakers or
writers to say the opposite of what they mean and listeners or readers
are expected to understand the intended meaning anyway.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/


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