LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (01) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 30.JUN.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

on 28.06.2004 8.07 PM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Quite often we hear about people feeling that the Dutch language is in one
way
> or another being threatened, even under siege.

[snip]

> Dutch speakers of the Netherlands have an international reputation for
being
> more than willing to use languages other than Dutch -- typically English,
> German and/or French -- not only with foreigners who actually require the
> help but more often than not with those that do not require or want the
> help, including people who desparately try to learn Dutch.  Recently I
have
> bumped into a number of Americans and other nationals that have lived in
the
> Netherlands and now speak good or even excellent Dutch and that have a
> continued interest in Dutch and Netherlands culture.  Each one told me
that
> it often felt like an exaspirating uphill battle, especially in Amsterdam,
> because people would automatically address them in English, would
sometimes
> even answer in English when addressed in Dutch.

I have had much the same experience in Flanders. I am only at the
"intermediate" learning level, but I have lived here in Vlaams-Brabant about
a year now, though I have had extended visits may times before. (I am
originally from the USA and am married to a Fleming.) I quite frequently
have absurd conversations in stores and restaurants where I speak Dutch
(which my wife tells me is perfectly fine) and the Fleming speaks English
(or worse, for me, French). And I have also had Flemings in the village I
live in (which is quite rural) express absolute disbelief that I am even
trying to learn Dutch at all. (Primarily they are under the impression that
it is much too difficult for foreigners to learn at all.) My "Spreek
Nederlands a.u.b., ik wil oefenen!" t-shirt helps :-)

Some of the non-Anglophones and non-Francophones in my Dutch course have
told me that they will often claim to not know English or French (they
usually know one or the other) when in public so as to force the native
speakers to use Dutch. As a Yank, I don't have that luxury :-\

Having said this, however, I do find that generally speaking Flemings do
appreciate the fact that I am learning, and once they realise I am serious,
they tend to switch to Dutch and put up with my mistake-ridden attempts with
diplomatic good humor. Some will even offer corrections (which I
appreciate). However, my experience in the Netherlands has been quite the
opposite. I have had Dutch professional colleagues tell me I shouldn't waste
my time since "English is an international language". When I have expressed
writing an article in my field (Egyptology) in Dutch for Dutch journals, I
was similarly told not to waste time with it and publish in a "scientific"
(i.e, English, French, or German) journal. It is my understanding that many
graduate university programs in both Flanders and the Netherlands teach only
or mainly in English (mainly in the sciences and medicine).

I have had two extended courses in Dutch now. It has been interesting to me
to compare the attitudes of the instructors (both Flemings). The first is a
Germanic philologist. He uses a text book and media series that is published
here in Belgium and teaches a "General Belgian Dutch". It isn't a Flemish
dialect of course, but does at least recognise there are often significant
differences in pronunciation and lexicon between the Flemish and Dutch
varieties of the language. He was also open to teaching some more dialect
terms, at least those that are used more generally in the Vlaams-Brabant and
Antwerpen provinces (i.e., the kind of thing you could likely hear on TV or
read in a national news paper). One thing he would not teach, however, was
how to conjugate verbs with "gij". This is, in my opinion, very unfortunate
as you *will* hear it everyday in Flanders, so it might be useful to know,
even if you don't actually use it yourself. (And if anyone knows of a book
or website with it, please contact me offlist.)

My second instructor was quite the opposite. While she used a "General
Belgian Dutch" pronunciation, she used texts and media published in the
Netherlands. She insisted that this and only this was appropriate for Dutch
as a second language instruction and everything else was mere "dialect".
(For other list memebers, this is about the equivalent of being taught
Standard *British* English as a second language in the *USA*.) It was really
absurd as we were quite frequently obligated to learn vocabulary that is
never used here (or rarely), as even the instructor admitted. (Example: she
would take off points if we referred to a a student's flat as a "kot" rather
than a "studentenkamer"; this is a problem when you are living in the
university town of Leuven and only "kots" are advertised for rent.) The
audio material was also quite difficult for a number of students who had
little experience with the pronunciation of Dutchmen; it can be quite
incomprehensible to a learner that only hears Flemings on a daily basis.
This sort of attitude is not helpful when the student actually wants to
communicate outside of the classroom. True, he will be understood (but will
be immediately marked as foreign), but the student will not necessarily
understand what is being said to him either.

(I should note that these courses are designed to give foreigners a working
knowledge of the language for everyday use, and not, for example, reading
literature.)

> The impression this gives the foreign visitor has an extreme in a snippet
of
> conversation I recently picked up at an airport, where an American woman
told
> others, "Now that the Dutch are changing over to English ..."  I had to
> eavesdrop to find out if she really meant what I thought she meant, and
she
> did!

I am not at all surprised. I have met both Yanks and Brits living in the
Netherlands for over 20 years that haven't made any attempt to learn Dutch.
Why not? Absolutely no practical need to do so. I suppose there are similar
examples in Brussel and the region, but I doubt you would find such a
foreigner in Antwerp and elsewhere in Flanders. Part of that attitude is
stubbornness or laziness on the part of the foreigners, but I lay blame for
accepting and facilitating that attitude on the natives.

Cheers,

Troy

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