LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (05) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAR.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E]

>>From the Original Message -----
From: "Lowlands-L" <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
To: <LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
Sent: 24 March 2004 10:17
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.24 (04) [E]

Dear All:
    Alighting on the throwaway line on the Afrikaners quoted below, I note
that others have mentioned before that if the surviving ethnic wealth &
cultural variety of neighbouring races & peoples - their mere survival - is
any indicator, then the Afrikaner measures very well against other
colonising races from North-Western Europe. Consider e.g. the USA,
Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon, Batavia, South Molucca, etc.
    By the way, we call ourselves 'Diets'. is this pertinent? As - as it
were - among us Anglo-Saxons (Remember, the English were culturally isolated
& alienated by the Norman-French, as the Scots ((a thrawn race)) were not).
Even so, in the English Sailor's Argot all seamen from the NW European
Littoral were dubbed 'Dutch' - German, Nederlands or Flemish citizenship was
simply not an issue. I think they were correct.
    Is this not more pertinent to our concerns with language than the trend
of this discussion? Let us get back to Diets!

> I'd also like to believe that the Dutch are very tolerant. The ones who
> settled in South Africa must have been from a different tribe. Or were
> they anglo-saxons?

Yrs Respectfully,
M Dreyer.

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From: rick denkers <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.03.25 (02) [E]

Moyen Georg,

> However, living in Holland, I do encounter regularly a sort of uneasiness
> with Dutch once they are confronted with the notion that the border
between
> The Netherlands and Germany is not a clear cut language border.
> The common Lowland heritage of the two countries often are not known, and
if
> known, often on purpose ignored or even "verdrängt" (repressed), I
believe.
> This is, to my experience, true for a considerably big part of the
> population
> here.

With living in Holland i do  presume that you mean one of the provinces
Holland .
People from the West are most certainly ignoring the fact that germans and
Dutch people are from the same ancestors. They do like to see themselves as
a "unique nation" with no ties to what is nowadays known as Germany.

For us, the people in the east its a whole different ballgame. We do speak
(allmost) the same language as the German people on the other side of the
border , and a lot of us have german ancestors (Where i live there are whole
communities with a German background). In fact they are sometimes litterally
our neighbours.
So we are aware of our roots.

We are not exactly "in love" with the people from the West. Much in the same

way as that the People from the West have against Germans.....   But most of
all it is that we are considered as "boertjes" with our funny accents.....
And "boertjes" is not ment as a compliment...

But do bear in mind that there is also the "Big brother, younger bother"
effect.
A few weeks ago i was enjoying a holliday in Denmark and to my suprise the
Danes do seem to have the same attitude against the Germans as the Dutch
have.

> but more generally with the - in my perception remarkably widely spread -
> half conscious feeling, that country  (state) and a language area should
be
> the same.

I do think that it is quite handy to speak one language. But i would rather
see it as an "esperanto" with respect for local languages. And that is
regrettably not the case in the Netherlands. It is that we are s
Why is it possible to accept that Frisian is a language and  Limburgish or
Grunnegs  not?

> As I believe, this is leading to the tendency to e.g. expect or even to
> "want" that "Austrian" must be a own vernacular and not just "German" and,
> even more remarkable, the tendency not to accept "Flemish" as the Dutch in
> Belgium, but to inssist that Flemish is a (close, but) distinct language.
(I
> see also in this context the habit to sub-title in Dutch TV "Flemish"
> movies.)

Flemish is not for all Dutch people easy to follow. For us Notherners for
instance..
You can also look at it from a positive point of view. The relation between
the Dutch and the Flemish has allways been a "difficult" relation. Thatswhy
, when it comes to the Flemish, Dutch people try to be as diplomatic as they
can be.

> In any case, for me was the lack of acceptance here of the relation of
Dutch
> with Low Saxon (as long you don't speak with people with special interest
or
> training in languages) a reason to look for LL-L.

Welkom!  Hier zal niemand ontkennen dat er banden bestaan tussen het
saksisch en het Nederlands ;-]
En ik ben in ieder geval zeer zeker geen  Linguist.

Grout'n,

Rick Denkers

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