LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.01 (04) [E]

Sat May 1 19:59:16 UTC 2004

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.01 (02) [E]

I should have mentioned in one of my recent messages that my Caldwell
ancestors who came to America in 1727 came from Enniskillen, Ireland.  Their
ancestors were from southern Scotland (Ayrshire and Glasgow).  Going further
back, there is much debate among genealogists about their origins, some
saying English, others Norman French, others French Huguenots who moved to
Scotland in the 17th century (obviously the French connection would involve
a name change, since "Caldwell" is Anglo-Saxon).

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.30 (04) [E]

> From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.30 (03) [E]
>
> One radio documentary that I listened to recently suggested that the
> majority of the "Scotch-Irish" (which is the correct spelling still used
> in
> NA) actually settled in the Mid-Atlantic area around Philadelphia (clearly
> a Southwest derived dialect), then, due to being treated like second class
> citizens, they moved south into the relatively uninhabited Appalachians,
> which at the time, if anything, had a dialect more similar to that of the
> lowland areas of North and South Carolina of today, which in turn was
> probably also much closer to the King's English than Scots.  The
> documentary also mentioned that when they arrived in North America, they
> were pretty much all Presbyterians, but once they got into the mountains,
> the Presbyterian church couldn't supply ministers fast enough (having such
> a high academic standard and all), so they fell prey to the Baptists, who
> pretty much let anyone preach the Gospel (humour!), which would explain
> the
> very high percentage of Baptists in the South.

This is certainly true in my ancestors' case (except for the Baptist part -
they remained Presbyterian for several generations, though various branches
converted at different times to other churches as they spread out over the
country).  My family arrived in Delaware in 1727, settled briefly in
Lancaster County, PA, then moved to southern Virginia to establish a
Presbyterian community.  Then in succeeding generations some of them went
south into the Carolinas (John C. Calhoun descended from that branch),
others stayed in Virginia, while my branch went west into Kentucky (one
served as an early Lt. Governor of Kentucky) and eventually West Tennessee
by the mid 19th century.  My father was born in West Tennessee, but due to
his joining the Air Force in 1948, my brothers and sisters and I were all
born in different places, and we ended up in Knoxville, Tennessee, when I
was 15 (mainly because my father's sister and her husband had settled in the
Knoxville area because her husband got a job in Oak Ridge during WW2 - he
was a safety engineer at the national labs).

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Isn't it true that there was a lot of mining in the Appalachian mountains,
> and that that attracted many immigrants from Wales and Cornwall?  (There
> are
> telling names, such as Cornwall Bridge.)

Could be.  I know that Jones, Thomas, Williams, and Davis are very common
family names in East Tennessee.  In fact, the oldest town in Tennessee is
Jonesborough.

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.30 (03) [E]
>
> were highly impressionistic.  It is true that American
> linguists in general have virtually no knowledge of
> "Wessexian" (could you give us 2-3 good references on
> this variety to have at hand?) and have no doubt

Nothing currently published as far as I know (other than reminiscences with
smatterings of dialect), but you might be able to get the following
second-hand:

Grammar: Norman Rogers. "Wessex Dialect", Moonraker Press, 1979 SBN
239.00182.6

Texts: John Read, "Cluster-o'-Vive", Somerset Folk Press, London, 1923.

There's also a Somerset word book in my local library which I'll post a
reference to when I next get into town, but this is Victorian and I haven't
been able to locate a copy for myself.

There are introductory books on English dialects - Peter Trudgill has been
known to witter on a bit about the aspects of Wessexian that he finds
exciting - but you must have already covered all this considering the sort
of research you do.

The poems of William Barnes are always in print, but he doesn't seem to me
to explore the full extent of the dialect - his narrative style tends to be
similar in every poem, restricting the grammar to certain forms.

> The idea of a Scotch-Irish connection to Appalachia is
> not an "uneducated guess among non-linguists."  The
> overwhelmingly popular notion among them is that
> mountain speech is Elizabethan.

Now what does that mean? I take it that you don't number yourself among
these non-linguists and understand that Appalachian can in no way be
Elizabethan! Even if it could, it wouldn't mean anything because the
Elizabethan dialect of English were varied to the point of mutual
incomprehensibility.

> There was much variation in settlement groups in
> different parts of Appalachia, but by far the three
> largest groups were the Scotch-Irish from Ulster, the
> English (primarily from southern England), and the
> Germans.  Welsh and Cornish settlers were few except
> to some parts of Pennsylvania, and then only after the
> mid-19th century.  Appalachia was settled primarily in
> the 18th century.
>
> Maybe this will throw some light on the issue at hand.
>  It's not a myth!

Not really: you gave the groups but without the numbers it doesn't mean
much.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.30 (01) [E]

> From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.22 (14) [E]
>
> > From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.22 (12)
> > [E]
> >
> > > From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.04.22 (06)
> > [E]

<snip>

> > Usages like "they is judged" (i.e.
> > "is" with the plural
> > > pronoun "they") are unknown in American English.
> >
> > I wouldn't make such a sweeping generalization.  I
> > heard a lot of this type
> > of construction in East Tennessee (where I lived
> > from age 7 to age 10 and
> > again from age 15 to age 25), usually shortened to
> > "they's".  Of course,
> > sometimes "they" means "there", as in, "They ain't
> > no more aigs.  Ah bettah
> > go to the store 'n git some."
>
> Actually, the form "they's" ALWAYS represents "there"
> + "is," never the pronoun "they," as Fischer says.

I still don't agree.  I would say it usually, but not always, represents
"there", because I can hear in the back of my mind constructions such as:
"When is yore cousins gittin' here?" "They's comin' tomorrah."  It just
sounds "right" to me as a colloquial construction.  Maybe, like "me and him"
as a subject, it's just a widespread substandard construction and not really
limited to "Southern highlands".

Note: I'm not a linguist, just a lover of language. (Well, I was a
"linguist" for the government, where "linguist" is defined as someone who
works with one or more foreign languages, in my case Russian and French).

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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