LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.02 (06) [E/L]
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Tue Nov 2 23:11:34 UTC 2004
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L O W L A N D S - L * 02.NOV.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.02 (04) [E/German]
Looks great - nice to see how exactly the dialect of my "home away from
home", Viersen, is represented! I can only offer that people speaking the
Viersen dialect have no problem when going over the border to the
Netherlands and conversing with Dutch people using, for example, the dialect
of Venlo which, as I understand it, would be considered "Limburgish".
Mike S
Manchester, NH - USA
Ron wrote in part:
* Limburgish-Bergish
* Eastern Limburgish
(Krefeld, Mönchengladbach, Viersen, Heinsberg, Mettmann,
Northern Neuss district)
* Bergish
(Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mülheim an der Ruhr,
Wuppertal)
* Southern Gelderland Low Franconian
* Cleves-Wesel (Klevisch-Weselisch, a.k.a. Kleverländisch)
----------
From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.02 (04) [E/German]
Reinhard wrote:
>
> Here is the thing. We need to come to an agreement how to refer to
> the Low Franconian dialects of Germany (Northrhine-Westphalia) as a
> group or groups or alternatively allocate them typologically to Low
> Franconian groups used in Belgium and the Netherlands.
>
Haven't people been calling that, together with Limgurgish, Lower
Rhinish (Neder-Rijns, Niederrheinisch) for a long time now?
Henry
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.02 (04) [E/German]
>>>>> The Southern Gelderland dialects, spoken in the area I live myself,
are certainly considered as part of Dutch.
These dialects are very close to Standard Dutch, compared with Dutch Lower
Saxon or Dutch Limburgish dialects.
The same dialect is spoken as Kleverländisch in Germany around the city of
Cleves. I think the German Clevers are kind of proud they are speaking a
form of Dutch.
In Holland the local variety is also called Kleefse taal (language of
Cleves), which already indicates that the national border is no language
border here.
Since in Holland, Limburgish is recognized as a separate language (as is
Lower Saxon), I think that Limburgisch-Bergisch should not be seen as part
of Dutch. But, from a Dutch point of view,
Mölmsch doesn't have the essential Luimburgish features like sound shift of
k>ch in ich, mich, dich, ouch, -lich; and probably it lacks the musical
accent/tonal opposition too.
In Holland, Limburgish is considered as a group of transition dialects
between Dutch and Middle German. The Northern dialects of the Province of
Limburg, however, are no Limburgish dialects,
because they miss all the special features.
These North Limburg dialects form in fact one group with Kleverländisch and
Southern Gelders.
And all the latter can be considered as part of the great Brabantish group,
also called the Southern Central group of Dutch dialect.
For me, I do not really see how Low Franconian dialects in the
Netherland/Belgium could be seen seperately from their counterparts in
Germany just for practical reasons, since we are saying the
opposite all the time about Lower Saxon: I mean, that it is one single
languages that happens to be spoken in two (or more) different countries.
Ingmar
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Thanks, Mike!
My oldest sister has been living in Viersen for a long time, now speaks with
a Low Franconian accent and refers to Viersen by the native name "Viesche"
(which is pronounced ['fi at S@] or ['fiaS@] and thus should really be spelled
<Viësche>, in Limburgish spelling west of the borders <Viësje>).
Here is a brief sample in the dialect of Viersen
(http://members.fortunecity.com/vbv/lueue_die_sich_joot_voerstond.html):
Vör e paar Joar hau Karl Müggensack Pech, sin Bruut es öm avjehaue. No lef
heä aleen möt sin Huushälersche Grete Puhl, on dii es jet ärisch
schlonzisch. Maar se vörsteet et bäes joot, Karl öm dör Fenger te wikele.
Doadrüver ärjert sich deä Steuerberater Stöpsel. Deä mööt nämlich jeär sin
Dauter möt Karl vörhiirode.
Op een Kiir taucht Annemarie, dii fröere Bruut von Karl wier op. Grete on
Stöpsel vörjeäte en körte Tiit, dat se sich net lie köne. Se wole Annemarie
en jlöklische Familisch vüerspiele.
Of dat ales esue klap?
Ör könt et Üch joa ens ankiike!
Vüel Vroid doabee!
***
My attempt at transliteration into the spelling west of the borders:
Vur e paor Joar hau Karl Müggensack pech: zien broet es um avjehaue. No lef
heä alein mut sin hoeshälersje Grete Puhl, on die es jet ärisj sjlonzisj.
Maor ze vursjteit et bäes joot Karl um dur venger te wikkele.
Doardrüver ärjert sich deä Steuerberater Stöpsel. Deä meut nämlich jeär zien
dauter mut Karl vurhieraode.
Op ein kier taucht Annemarie, die freuere broet von Karl wiër op. Grete on
Stöpsel vurjeäte ein kurte tied, dat ze zich net lië keune. Ze wole
Annemarie en jluklisje familisj vüersjpiele.
Of dat ales esoeë klap?
Ur keunt et Uuch joa ens ankieke!
Vuel vroid doarbei!
Henry:
> Haven't people been calling that, together with Limgurgish, Lower
> Rhinish (Neder-Rijns, Niederrheinisch) for a long time now?
Sure, that's a rather unscientific, catch-all label that can mean different
things to different people. If you wanted to you could through Dutch in
with the same mix.
We were looking for something a bit more precise than that.
Ingmar:
> But, from a Dutch point of view,
> Mölmsch doesn't have the essential Luimburgish features like sound shift
of k>ch in ich, mich, > dich, ouch, -lich; and probably it lacks the
musical accent/tonal opposition too.
I guess that's where the "Bergish" part comes in, some sort of appendix,
perhaps a grouping that ought to be separate (i.e., Bergish as a separate
group from Limburgish).
In the Viersen dialect sample above you can see Limburgish features like
_zich_, _nämlich_ and _-sj_ (< -ch) in _sjlonzisj_.
Note for instance Krefeld dialect:
Ich bruck von dem Stohl de Blick op die Scholl und die Spröch auf
Krieewelsch Plaat.
My transliteration:
Ich bruk von dem sjtool de blik op die sjol und die sjpröch auf Krieëwelsj
Plaat.
This looks pretty darn Limburgish to me. So what if it is far-eastern, not
identical with diaelcts of the Netherlands?
Here an Eastern Limburgish sample from Mönchengladbach:
Et morjes hodde sech all be de Hoare,
de eene kos de Bochs net fenge,
dä angere hat et vüeschte Eng no hinge,
dä dridde hat dä Strompbängel verloare,
se hodde sech all be de Hoare.
My transliteration:
Et morjes hodde zech al be de hoare,
de eine kos de bochs net fenge,
de angere hat et vuëschte eng no hinge,
de dridde hat de sjtrompbengel verloare,
se hodde zech al be de hoare.
Ingmar:
> The same dialect is spoken as Kleverländisch in Germany around
> the city of Cleves. I think the German Clevers are kind of proud they
> are speaking a form of Dutch.
The site Plattsatt (http://www.plattsatt.de/) discusses this (among other
things) in German.
See the maps:
http://www.mundart.net/rheinische_sprachen.htm
http://www.geocities.com/vienna/7776/
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
P.S.: I just ordered some flowers online for Clara Kramer-Freudenthal's
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/) 85th birthday tomorrow after having
bad experiences with four other Hamburg florists. Since some additional
data were needed, the owner called me right back (from Hamburg to Seattle!)
and spoke to me in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) because the card I had sent
was in that language! She didn't seem to think of any of this as strange.
The times, they are a-changing. :-)
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