LL-L "Syntax" 2004.11.08 (01) [D/E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.11.07 (02) [E]

>>>>> Bedankt voor de reactie en uitleg, Roger.
What I meant was not that the Melkwezer negation particle _en/ne_ are loans
from French,
but that they might have been preserved longer in this dialect because
French has _ne_ too,
and French is a neighbouring language which has had, I you said, a lot of
influence on the
Melkwezer dialect, AND French has been the official language in Belgium and
before
that in Brabant for ages. Even in the official Dutch of Flanders/Belgium, we
still can recognize
a lot of French influence, especially in the grammar and syntax too; less so
in the vocabulary
because of the purist policy of keeping out French loan words as much as
possible.
But those loans words are much easier to recognize than loan grammatical
constructions etc.
So, if the official, heavily controlled standard language already shows
these French influences,
an archaic dialect certainly will too...
But maybe I'm wrong, it's just one of my theories made up by a Dutchman with
a Flemish mother

Vriendelijk gegroet, Ingmar Roerdinkholder

> From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.24 (03) [D/E]
>
> Hi Ingmar,
>
> Thanks for your reflexion on my posting about a double negative.
> Though Melkwezer is situated pretty close to the language border I don't
> think the use of 'en' as a negation can be attributed to French influence.
> French influence has indeed  been strong in that dialect as in all other
> dialects in Brabant (Belgium), but the inluence can only be ascertained in
> the field of vocabulary, never - as far as I can judge now - in
grammatical
> aspects.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Roger
>
> > From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
> > Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.18 (02) [E]
> >
> > >>>>> Hey Roger
> >
> > Sounds interesting! Would it be possible that in parts of Flemish
speaking
> > Belgium this _en/ne_ negative particle
> > was preserved so much longer because of French influence;like  _ne_ in
Je
> > ne sais pas? I mean Melkwezer must
> > be not too far from the Dutch/French (or Flemish/Walloon) language
border,
> > and standard French has been the
> > official languages of the area so long, and the Brabant capital is
> primarily
> > French-speaking Brussels...
> >
> > The Geteland example you gave  _ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil_  = St.
> > Dutch ik zeg u dat ik dat niet wil
> > looks quite Limburgish to me with all its  ch's. Is this part of Brabant
> > already Limburgophone maybe? (Ingmar)
> >
> > > From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> > > Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.09.05 (03) [E]
> > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > In connection with 'en/ne' I would like to add that in Brabant 'en' is
> > used
> > > as a negative particle together with another negative word. From the
> > dialect
> > > that I researched, the dialect of Melkwezer, a "Getelands" dialect in
> > > East-Brabant, I may quote a couple of examples: as der ni en
> zwecht..'als
> > je
> > > niet zwijgt..', ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil 'ik zeg je dat ik dat
> > niet
> > > wil' . The 'en' is used only sporadically today and then by older
> people.
> > It
> > > is my impression that  the word is only used before monosyllabic
verbal
> > > forms. In an article in Taal en Tongval (1950) J.L. Pauwels arrived at
a
> > > similar conclusion for the dialect of Aarschot
>
> ----------
>
> From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.24 (03) [D/E]
>
> Hi Ingmar again,
>
> I forgot to react to your last paragraph where you noted " The Geteland
> example you gave  ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil  = St. Dutch ik zeg u
dat
> ik dat niet wil looks quite Limburgish to me with all its  ch's. Is this
> part of Brabant already Limburgophone maybe?"
> Melkwezer is indeed quite close to the Brabant-Limburg border and Limburg
> influence is undeniable. In the book I published last year "Woordenboek
van
> het Melkwezers Een Getelands dialect" I enumerated the cases of eastern
> (German) influence. I found as many as 16, far fewer than for instance in
> the dialect of Tongeren (not so far from the Dutch-Limburg border), but
> considerably more than in the dialect of Tienen (about 10 km west of
> Melkwezer), which also belongs to the Getelands. By the way, Getelands has
> always been the battleground where eastern and western language features
> have been vying with one another for supremacy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger

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