LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.11 (07) [E]

Fri Nov 12 00:48:27 UTC 2004

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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.NOV.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

For the sake of accuracy and clarity let me rephrase the term "Northern
German dialects of Niedersachsen" (which you used under "Resources" today)
on the basis of what I assume you mean.

I believe you are referring to the North Saxon dialect group, which, at
least in area, is the largest.

Personally, I would include the group that conventionally is referred to as
the "Northeastern" (roughly from the former Iron Curtain to today's
Polish-German border, i.e., those of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
(Mecklenburg-Vorpommern), technically also some of those in Eastern
Pomerania, Northern Poland.  I would only call those farther east
"Northeastern," and even they are relatively easy to understand by speakers
farther west.  This would be a moot point, since most of these are now
moribund or extinct, were it not for the fact that that group is still being
represented by Mennonite Low Saxon (Plautdietsch) all over the world, now
predominantly in Germany.

Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) does not only have North Saxon dialects but
also Eastphalian (Saxon) dialects (in the south/southeast) and in its
southwestern corner Westphalian (Saxon) dialects, the latter of which
continue on into Northrhine-Westphalia and over into Twente, also into a
small area of Northwestern Hesse (Hessen).

The Eastphalian groups (starting in the west from the general area Hanover,
Brunswick and Northern Harz Mountains) continues east across the former Iron
Curtain into Saxony-Anhalt (Saxon-Anhalt).  Going east from there you get
mostly those of the Brandenburg type.  Pretty much anything east of the
former Iron Curtain used to be and still is in some quarters referred to as
"Eastern" (Northeastern and Southeastern).  I don't quite go along with this
rough division.  I would only call the dialects going eastward from about
Central Saxony-Anhalt "Southeastern," their special features being mostly
Slavonic-derived, particularly palatalization of velars (e.g., _gegaan_ >
_jejaan_, also a feature of Berlin Missingsch German (_jejangen_).

I would allocate the Saxon dialects of Groningen and Fryslân on the
Netherlands side to the North Saxon group also, specifically to the
Frisian-substrate subdivision represented also in Eastern Friesland and
Oldenburg on the German side.

As a general rule, German speakers of North Saxon dialects have little to no
problems understanding *any* dialect used in Germany, either spoken or
written.  The ones of the extreme west present some problems in terminology
(e.g., _taal_ vs _spraak_ 'language', _praten_ or _küern_ vs _snakken_ or
_spreken_ 'to talk', or _vyts_ <Fiets> vs _vaarrad_ <Fahrrad> 'bicycle' ),
but most people are familiar with the most common of those and understand
most others from context.

Yes, speakers in Germany, except those close to the border, do stumble over
what may or may not be considered Dutch loans in the dialects of the
Netherlands.  Some of them may indeed be loans while others may be areal
(shared across language lines) or may simply be archaisms that in Germany
have been replaced in the wake of Germanization, such as _wet_, which in
most (not all) dialects of the German side has been replaced by the German
loanwords _Satzung_ and _Gesetz_.  Others may be earlier east-west
distribution variants, such as western _sünner_ ~ _sünder_ vs eastern _aan_
(<ahn>) 'without', but those using _aan_ usually have no problem with
_sünner_ ~ _sünder_, would probably perceive them as archaic (as do German
speakers who are familiar with archaic _sonder_ in connection with modern
_ohne_).  I have no major difficulties with *any* Low Saxon dialect -- but
then again, I may not represent the majority.

The point of this diatribe I'm in danger of getting lost in here is supposed
to be that much of what you hear tends to be overblown.  Diversity? Yes.
Communication problems? Not a lot, at least not when the spoken word is
involved.  Most of the obstacles are due to differences in writing systems
and people's obsession with wanting to use "pure" local dialect and writing
it as "phonetically" as possible, showing all the little allophones that
really have no place in a normal writing system, that are nothing but
clutter.  Add to this German-based orthography versus (French-influenced)
Dutch-based orthography, and you get a nice little mess when it comes to
written communication.  Mutual comprehension is impaired in reading where
there would be none in listening.

I got Clara Kramer-Freudenthal in touch with a few Low Saxon speakers in the
Netherlands.  Natively she speaks (and writes) Lower Elbe North Saxon (Altes
Land/Olland) and faultlessly German, next to no English.  She had
difficulties with written texts that came from the Netherlands.  As soon as
I transliterated them into a German-based system she understood pretty much
everything.  She had no problems understanding Reuben Epp's Mennonite Low
Saxon messages written in a German-type way, even though the way it is
written is not purely phonemic but also "pseudo-phonetic" (e.g.,
<Kjleedaschaup> for _kleyder-schap_ 'wardrobe', 'closet', and <Kjinjabad>
for _kinder-bed_ 'children's bed', where she would write <Klederschapp> and
<Kinnerbett> respectively).

So, orthography is in actual fact the main problem.

Now, our Henry may be described as "sceptically agreeable" or "cautiously
openminded," as Kenneth and I have found out in discussing the ANS proposals
with him.  I have no problem with the "sceptic" and "cautious" parts.  More
power to him (as long as he isn't hostile)!  I welcome his input (as long as
he'll agree in the end --  nah!).  Unfortunately, I find this sort of
open-mindedness
rarely on the German side of the border.  There I encounter mostly "freezing
silence," a.k.a. "silent rejection," a.k.a. ignoring.  I assume that this is
mostly
due to a combination of suspicion, close-mindedness and lack of
understanding (due to old-age conservatism and insufficient education to
understand the basic concepts).  The ones that do "listen" are mostly
younger people, both in Germany and the Netherlands.  It so happens that
there is a much higher percentage of younger people using the language on
the Netherlands side, and this may explain differences in response with
regard to the two countries.

Add to this a stupendous degree of ignorance even among native speakers on
the German side when it comes to the facts that theirs is a Saxon language
and that dialects of it are used in the Netherlands as well, while most
speakers in the Netherlands are at least "sort of" aware that their
_streektalen_ are _Saksisch_ and are closely related to _Platduits_ or
_Nederduits_ east of the border.  This is not something the German
educational system puts anywhere even on the lowest priority list on which
_Platt_ is worth little more than a few footnotes and a few token poems and
ditties as a negligible appendage to German studies.  You don't really have
to be a permanent subscriber to conspiracy theory lists to assume that this
is a hang-up of the "good" old days of doing to minority languages what I
would call "ignoring away," for the sake of the type of national and/or
ethnic unity that is really uniformity, in a mode of thinking that allocates
one language to one ethnicity.  Sadly, for whatever reason (probably some
sort of territorialism and fear of the orthography monster), even some
German organizations that were instrumental in the recognition movement
remain silent when it comes to the dialects west of the border.

In short, as I see it, the remaining obstacles are these, in this order:

(1) language education > awareness > (re)unification
(2) language-specific orthographic reform

In my opinion, the second cannot precede the first.

Thanks for your interest!
Reinhard/Ron

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