LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.15 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (05) [D/E/LS]

Hi Ingmar,

In Flemish  (though I'm not sure about West- and East-Flemish - provinces
West- en Oost-Vlaanderen) 'tonen' is equally a very formal word. The normal
expression in the vernacular is, just like in the Netherlands -as you
stated - , 'laten zien'. In East-Brabant the word 'tonen' exists but then in
a different meaning: "schijnen, lijken"  (seem, appear). It is pronounced
['tyëne] , the y representing the closed rounded front vowel like in French
'nu, vu'. The vowel is the result of umlaut of the Old Germanic au, which
presupposes the presence of i or j in the following syllable. This is
corroborated by the Gothic form at-augjan.
For those who are looking for a Dutch etymological dictionary I could
recommend Van Dale Etymologisch Woordenboek. There is also the old but
excellent Etymologisch Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal by Franck-Van
Wijk. I am not sure it is still in supply.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
----- Original Message -----
> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.13 (01) [E]
>
> >>>>> I would consider it at first sight as toon + bank, from _tonen_ = to
> show, and _bank_ = bench.
> _Tonen_ is a rather formal sounding equivalent of _laten zien_ , show.
> I think in Flanders it is used in all day speech as well, in the
Netherlands
> we only say _laten zien_.
> Example: _Toon me uw boeken en ik zeg u wie u bent_ = show me your books
and
> I'll tell you who you are.
>
> According to Jan de Vries'  Nederlands Etymologisch Woordenboek, tonen
comes
> from Middel Dutch tônen or tôghenen, related to Old Saxon tôgian and Old
> High German zougen. Gothic  at-augjan  and Old English æt-iewan prove the
> initial t in tonen to
> be a prefix.
> And indeed, there are forms without t:
> Middel Dutch ôghen, Old Low Franconian ôgon and ôginon, Old Saxon ôgian,
Old
> English eawan, eowan, iewan,
> Old Frisian âwa, Old Norse eygja and Gothic augjan.
> These words all have to do with eye, Auge, oog.
>
> Since Modern Dutch is mostly derived from Low Franconian,  *at-ôginon or
> *tôginon will be the direct ancestors of tonen,
> but I only reconstructed these forms, they are not found in old texts.
>
> The Dutch word _toneel_ = theatre, drama, stage, is originally from French
> tinel (retinue at the court) < Italian tinello (tup), but became its o
under
> the influence of the verb tonen.
>
> Ron, whenever you want to know something about Dutch etymology, you can
ask
> me and I'll look it up for you in this excellent dictionary. Hold fast!
> Ingmar

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.14 (02) [E]

>>>>> No, dear Global, I wasn't insulting you.
Nor defending you because there was no need for it.
By the way, it was all Ron's fault  ;o) Sorry...
And about that humor, it's well know that one can have a good laugh with
meese in general (even German ones).
Ingmar

Global Moose:
>
> Hmmm... I just came back from a long rehearsal weekend with my choir, for
> our upcoming concert, and I tried to find my way back through all these
> "silly waterfowl" allusions, but I still can't see how on earth my name
got
> in there... oh well. So now I'll never know whether I have a sense of
> humour, or not. Bummer. And I'm also not too sure whether I have reason to
> be insulted. Please tell me if I do, and who I should be mad at, to save
me
> the trouble of further research. I sort of got the impression - correct me
> if I'm wrong - that, while Ron and Ingmar were insulting each other, both
of
> them took great care to insult me, too, on the side, while they were at
it -
> or were they each defending me? And what would be worse?

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.14 (05) [E]

>>>>> No of course I wouldn't mind, at least not anymore than you would if
I'd call you an elk steer, dear Moose... # Ingmar

Gabriele:
> Although it would be tempting to ask why you would be offended at being
> called something that would imply you are female - does that mean you
would
> regard that as an insult, thereby inferring that "female" means something
> inferior? Nah, on second thought, let's not go there! :-P

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.14 (02) [E]

>>>>> Hi Tomas. Isn't Eejit just the local pronunciation of Idiot?
By the way, Dutch _oksel_ means armpit, that looks a lot like Scots/Ulters
_oxter_.
Ingmar

> Tom Carty:
>
> The origions of the word silly in English at least, is 'holy', as in
> obsessivly so, to the point of no reason. It spread then into the meaning
of
> 'having no reason', to todays meaning of being lightheartedly stupid.
>
> In Hiberno English, the word eejit has the same meaning, also in Ulster
> Scots.
>
> In>
> Indeed Ulster Scots is spoken by more than the scots: many Irish in the
> planter areas of Ulster and north leinster have their dialect heavily
> influenced by Ulster Scots, with words like oxter for elbow, fornint for
> opposite etc., etc.

----------

From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.11.14 (02) [E]

Tom,

> From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>

> The origions of the word silly in English at least, is 'holy', as in
> obsessivly so, to the point of no reason. It spread then into the meaning
of
> 'having no reason', to todays meaning of being lightheartedly stupid.


Dutch has a noun 'sul' and an adj. 'sullig' meanig stupid. It's only
attested since the 17th century, so it could be an English loan since terms
of abuse in Dutch are often of English origin. The French adj 'sale' is also
used in abusive language.

> In gaelic there are two words for fool: amadan and fludreithmain, for male
> and female respectivly. Local dialects and slang have words like 'cloots'
> for a fool or 'clootish' for foolish.

Dutch 'kloot' en 'klote', metaforical testis, are quite abusive and are
being said of people 'stomme(stupid) kloot' and situations 'dat is klote'.
The verb klooien means something like acting foolish/doing  nothing
meaningfull. In my homevillage 'the klits'is a nickname, and i've heard it
elsewhere as well. In Dutch there's an expression 'de kluts kwijt zijn'
which is often euphemistic used for fools:'hij is niet gek (mad), hij is
alleen(only) een beetje de kluts kwijt'.

 Indeed Ulster Scots is spoken by more than the Scots.

Groeten,

Jo Thys

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