LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.20 (01) [E]
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Sat Nov 20 19:18:36 UTC 2004
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.11.19 (08) [E]
Ron schreev:
>
> Former Hanseatic Cities:
>
Ron, are you sure that list is complete? I know of many more cities that
claim to be, and have proven to be, Hanseatic cities.
Henry
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.11.19 (08) [E]
>>>>> Interesting, I didn't know Nijmegen (Nimwegen/Noviomagus) belonged to
>>>>> the Hansa too (or Bolsward).
In the Netherlands a number of towns along the river IJssel are usually
considered to be THE former Hanseatic cities.
In this list below you mentioned already Zutphen (prov Gelderland),
Deventer, Zwolle and Kampen (prov Overijssel), but there are three smaller
cities that are supposed part of it too:
Doesburg and Hattem(prov Gelderland) and Hasselt (prov Overijssel).
This whole region is Low Saxon speaking area (South Western group), it would
be interesting to find out if there are any traces to be pointed from for
instance Northern Lowlands Saxon or so. What I do know is that these cities
all use uvular [R] in stead of trilled [r] of the surrounding
countryside. And that Zutphen has diphthongs like [e:i] and [o:u] in _leed_
"song" and _blood_ "blood", whereas the country and all of the rest of the
Low Saxon Eastern Netherlands have [e:]/[I:]/[i:] and [o:]/[U:]/[u:]. And
that at least Kampen and Zutphen have present plural verbs
ending in -en _zee kieken_ "they look" in stead of -t _zee kiekt_ etc in the
rest of the East (Achterhoek, Oost-Veluwe, Salland, Twente, Zuid-Drenthe).
There are also some striking similarities that only appear in most of these
Hansa cities, like äö [9:] in stead of ao [Q:] before r> näör [n9:R]
"towards", däör [d9:R] "there" vs. naor/daor, and ä [{] in stead of a[A]
before r> wärken [v{Rk=N] "work", ärm [{Rm] "arm", "poor" etc. vs.
"warken/arm". By the way, _-äör_ is typical for Nijmegen too.
Another thing: the diphthongs [@u] or [eu] for long o [o:]/[o:u] that were
mentioned before are considered as very typical for the city of Rotterdam in
Holland (largest port in the world), there might be a connection with South
Eastern England/London and Hamburg here too...
Ingmar
>>-Ron wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if there is a complete list of these cities.
> > I found one and will post it at the end of this.
> > Former Hanseatic Cities:
> Anklam
> Bergen
> Bolsward
> Brandenburg
> Braunschweig (Brunswick)
> Bremen
> Brugge (Bruges)
> Cesis (Windau)
> Chelmno
> Kraków (Krakau, Cracow)
> Deventer
> Dortmund
> Duisburg
> Einbeck
> Elblag (Elbing)
> Frankfurt an der Oder
> Gdańsk (Danzig)
> Goslar
> Göttingen
> Greifswald
> Halle
> Hamburg
> Hannover (Hanover)
> Herford
> Hildesheim
> Kalmar
> Kampen
> Kaunas (Kovno)
> Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
> Kuldiga (Goldingen)
> Lübeck (capital and founder city)
> Lüneburg (Lunenburg)
> Magdeburg
> Merseburg
> Minden
> Münster (Munster)
> Narva
> Nijmegen
> Novgorod
> Osnabrück
> Paderborn
> Pärnu (Pernau)
> Pskov
> Quedlinburg
> Riga
> Rostock
> Smolensk
> Soest
> Stendal
> Stralsund
> Szczecin (Stettin)
> Tallinn (Reval)
> Tartu (Dorpat)
> Torun (Thorn)
> Turku (Åbo)
> Tver
> Valmiera (Wolmar)
> Ventspils (Windau)
> Viljandi (Fellin)
> Visby
> Wismar
> Wrocław (Breslau)
> Zutphen
> Zwolle
----------
From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.19 (02) [E]
Ron, Gary et al.
> By and large, Low Franconian is rhotic,
> though there may be Dutch dialects on Saxon substrates that are not. I
> don't know and would love to find out.
I don't know if this is what you cal non-rhotic, but in my South
(Belgian)Limburgish dialect the -r is often deleted compared to standard
Dutch words like hart(e) /hat(e)/, paard (horse) /pjat/, Aarde (earth)/jad/,
kers(cherry):/ kjos/, etc.
What i found particular interesting in the Yola sampels was
the 'Aar is ...', much like Dutch 'Er is ...', though 'd'er is ...' is
also heard. The way calf
was written sounds much like Limburgians speaking standard dutch /Kallef/,
while in my
dialect it's pronounced as [ka:f], like in English, and the -al in salt is
pronounced as a raising a: (aa-e),
[za:t] just like the ol of cold [ka:t]. The ou sounds exaclty as the
English ou (house, mouse), all this
without any known Saxon influence. I don't know wheter it is of German
origin, but if so these
influences should have come mainly from Aken en Keulen, following the
ancient
highway (England-)Bavais-Keulen, which is still in use. Some features may
have even
gone the other way around since this region flourished before Aken and
Keulen .
Again and again I'm surprised how much my dialect ressembles English. Some
years ago a
newsreader from my area announced a 'sjoer' (during the national weather
forecast).
Possibly there's a (part of a) common ancestor in Cologne, what can speak
for the Hanseatic trade tesis, but still has to deal with the nature of
these contacts.
So, what sorts of contacts between Continental Limburgish and Southern
England do we know of?
One acient source is systematiclly discarded when it comes to language, not
being able to support the main view.
According to Ceasar the Belgae (who came from over the Rhine) didn't speak a
Celtic languae, while some Brittans spoke the same language as the Belgae:
"the inland is habited by men who call themselves autochtonous. But in the
coastal regions there live people who formerly came from Belgium, to plunder
or wage war (nearly all have names that are usual by the people who they
came from). After the war they stayed ..."
Elsewhere he states that : "the Suessonenen (...) possesed the largest area
and the most fertile grounds. Still in our time Diviacus had been their
king, the most powerful man of whole Gallia, who apart form these region
controlled a large part of Brittania". Later on, many Belgae fought in
Ceasars army and possibly also stayed. This type of language contact is more
prone to cause linguïstic changes than some merchantman. This implies that
even before Caesar a 'Germanic' (or 'not-Keltic') language was spoken in
south-east England, which was possibly pushed to the west and north from
this fertile area by new Germanic invaders and underwent a lot of changes,
but keeping some archaïc features, especially when it got somewhat isolated
like Yola (and Limburgish likewise being cut off from the other Belgian
(Dutch) dialects).
Only a thought.
Groeten,
Jo Thys
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Henry (above):
> Ron, are you sure that list is complete? I know of many more cities that
> claim to be, and have proven to be, Hanseatic cities.
No, Henry. I pieced it together from several sources on the web, and I
would really love to make it as complete as possible and post it somewhere
(perhaps even as a part of our anniversary project), because it would be a
great resource service for folks doing historical, cultural and linguistic
research. Outside the Netherlands, much is made of the Hanseatic cities in
the east, little of those in the Netherlands. Does anyone feel like
researching this a bit more in order to extend the list as much as possible?
Ingmar (above):
> What I do know is that these cities all use uvular [R] in stead of trilled
> [r] of the
> surrounding countryside.
I assume that that is an urban, Dutch-influenced innovation. It is also an
innovation in the North Saxon speech modes of some people in Germany, in
that case German-influenced. The apical (trilled) [r] is still considered
most authentic, and it is preserved in many Northerners' German.
> And that Zutphen has diphthongs like [e:i] and [o:u] in _leed_ "song"
> and _blood_ "blood", whereas the country and all of the rest of the
> Low Saxon Eastern Netherlands have [e:]/[I:]/[i:] and [o:]/[U:]/[u:].
The Zutphen pronunciation is like that in North Saxon farther east. I once
spoke with a woman from Zutphen and noticed that the diphthongs did not
differ from mine.
> And that at least Kampen and Zutphen have present plural verbs
> ending in -en _zee kieken_ "they look" in stead of -t _zee kiekt_
> etc in the rest of the East (Achterhoek, Oost-Veluwe, Salland,
> Twente, Zuid-Drenthe).
On the German side of the border there is dialectal variation in this
regard. Plural suffix choice for the present-future tense is _-t_ ~ _-en_
(for the *entire* plural group of persons). It is strictly _-en_ for the
preterite, in some dialects still older _-den_ ~ _ten_; e.g., the paradigm
using a weak (regular) verb:
ik leyr 'I learn/study/teach'
du leyrst 'thou learnest/studiest/teachest'
hey/sey/it/dat leyr 'he/she/it learns/studies/teaches'
wy/jy/sey leyrt ~ leyren 'we/you/they learn/study/teach'
ik leyr(de) 'I learned/studied/taught'
du leyr(d(e))st 'thou learned/studied/taught'
hey/sey/it/dat leyr(de) 'he/she/it learned/studied/taught'
wy/jy/sey leyr(d)en 'we/you/they learned/studied/taught'
> There are also some striking similarities that only appear in most
> of these Hansa cities, like äö [9:] in stead of ao [Q:] before r> näör
> [n9:R] "towards", däör [d9:R] "there" vs. naor/daor, and ä [{] in
> stead of a[A] before r> wärken [v{Rk=N] "work", ärm [{Rm] "arm",
> "poor" etc. vs. "warken/arm". By the way, _-äör_ is typical for Nijmegen
> too.
This seems rather Westphalian to me.
In North Saxon in Germany it tends to be:
naar (<naar> ~ <nor> ~ <na(h)> ~ <no(h)>) [nQ:6] ~ [no:6] 'to'
daar (<daar> ~ <dor>) [dQ:6] ~ [do:6] 'there'
warken ['va:kN=] 'to work'
arm (<Arm>) [?a:m] 'arm'
Jo (above):
> Again and again I'm surprised how much my dialect ressembles English.
> Some years ago a
> newsreader from my area announced a 'sjoer' (during the national
> weather forecast).
In North Saxon of Germany we say _schuur_ [Su:3`], too, which would be
_sjoer_ using Dutch spelling, in some dialects _schuyr_ (D. sp. _sjuur_).
This comes from Old Saxon _skûr_, identical to Old Frisian. German has
_Schauer_ (< schûr). Old English has _scúr_ ([Su(:)r]), preserved in Scots
_shour_ [Sur]. North Saxon has developed an adverb from this: _schuurwys'_
(<schuurwies'>) 'intermittently', 'once in a while', usually with the flavor
of 'unpredictably' (as opposed to more regular _af un tou_, _af un an_ or
_stootwys'_).
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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